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Interesting idea, kinda the reverse of our theology, that we have failed the test and that we are currently in Hell, purgatory or spirit prison. It is an idea which goes back centuries.
Against:
I see great beauty in the world and universe, you just have to know where to look. Although there are many cruel people, there are also many good people. We are also happy at least some of the time.
For:
This can be a brutal world and universe, containing disasters, parasites, viciousness amongst other creatures, weather issues. Our rulers through history have been mostly tyrants and most people here are followers i.e. the type of people who would cave in and go to Hell. A lot of human existence is suffering.
Perhaps there are degrees of hell, since there are degrees of heaven. Hell, to me, is not being in the presence of God. Since we have limited acces to God now, I would say we are in a state of hell. But we have flashes of God’s spirit at times, so perhaps there are darker hells than what we are currently in.
I see aspects of good and bad around us, but there is something hellish about this world sometimes both in its natural state and those with power and influence. I agree if there are Hell realms (as stated in Buddhism), there might be harsher ones as we do see wonderful things in this one – the Pacific islands, the Norwegian fjords, Monument Valley, the Andes….
However, it could be much worse. I see some things getting worse – climate change on an epic scale, the prospect of a workforce entirely replaced by machines and surplus to requirements, total surveillance (already far advanced through social media, satnav/gps, listening devices such as Cortana/Alexa)… and of course old school brutality.
Heber13 wrote:
Hell, to me, is not being in the presence of God. Since we have limited acces to God now, I would say we are in a state of hell.
I suggested in EQ once that we are thus spiritually dead, but there was strong resistance.
SamBee wrote:
I see aspects of good and bad around us,
It is both a heaven and a hell. Since we believe in opposition in all things, perhaps it could not be heavenly without some parts being hellish. Perhaps heaven involves our working together to improve our collective circumstances.
I recently saw the movie Jackie and was drawn to some dialogue:
Quote:The Priest: There comes a time in man’s search for meaning when one realises that there are no answers. And when you come to that horrible, unavoidable realization, you accept it or you kill yourself. Or you simply stop searching… I have lived a blessed life. And yet every night, when I climb into bed, turn off the lights, and stare in to the dark, I wonder… Is this all there is?
Jackie Kennedy: You wonder?
The Priest: Every soul on this planet does. But then, when morning comes, we all wake up and make a pot of coffee.
Jackie Kennedy: Why do we bother?
The Priest: Because we do. You did this morning, you will again tomorrow. But God, in his infinite wisdom, has made sure it is just enough for us.
Life, with its vistas and valleys, with its ecstasy and anguish, with its fevered bustle and peaceful calm – both heaven and hell, is enough for me.
I posited that same idea once in a class several years ago Roy and got essentially the same response. The common definition of spiritual death is being separated from God. There is no question we are physically separated from God here, so it is a logical conclusion that we are therefore spiritually dead. From another point of view, however, many believe we have contact with God and are therefore not separated. I live on the east coast, my daughter lives on the west coast. We text and call frequently, almost daily. But we are separated, texts and calling do not change the physical distance between us. I feel the same about God. I agree with Heber, yes, we are in a state of hell. in my mind hell is only a state of being anyway and not a physical or spiritual place.
This thread reminded me of the TV show “The Good Place.” I can’t tell you why or I’d spoil it for you.
I believe Heaven, Hell, and all the nuances of the two are conditions not places. I believe we are striving for a condition, not a physical destination. I believe that is basic Mormon theology, and it is one of my favorite aspects. Old Timer wrote:
I believe Heaven, Hell, and all the nuances of the two are conditions not places. I believe we are striving for a condition, not a physical destination. I believe that is basic Mormon theology, and it is one of my favorite aspects.
John Milton penned a phrase, in Paradise Lost, that defined hell. Satan said “Which way I fly is hell — myself am hell”. Hell may well be a state of mind.
“Are we in Hell?” Yes of course. We are also in Heaven. One cannot exist without the other: there is no darkness without light…
SamBee wrote:I see some things getting worse
I can’t tell. There are times I think I would not want to live at any other time of life…I like my samsung galaxy, I guess. It’s a pretty good time to be here…and then…lest we rest on our laurels…the evils of the world are so many and so serious it is frightening.I think according to our teachings, this is all a temporary state right now, right? Perhaps part is hell and part heaven as people stated…but just enough of each to keep us engaged and keep us learning and making choices and efforts.
This temporary state has enough to keep us wondering. Without perfect knowledge, there is still a constant space for choice and faith.
Hell in the next life as a permanent state of being?? What will that be like?
http://thehackernews.com/2015/02/smart-tv-spying.html?m=1 Quote:Samsung’s Smart TV uses voice recognition technology to enable voice commands, but its privacy policy defined by the company says “if your spoken words include personal or other sensitive information, that information will be captured and transmitted to a third party.”
In other words, Samsung’s Voice Recognition feature is always listening you, unless you deactivate it. So these internet-enabled smart devices can be exploited to reveal a wealth of personal information.
Samsung also admitted last year that their TVs and phones can be used to listen in to people without their consent.
It’s not just this though, the signs are between phones that listen to and watch you, Google which collates everything you do and where you go, GPS, CCTV & satellites, we are sleepwalking into a total surveillance culture.
People die. If we’re referring to heaven/hell as the place or state we end up in after we die, then we are not in hell. But what I think you’re asking is, whether or not we had a life before this one, and our existance in this world is punishment for the decisions we made in the past. That also seems unlikely, as the righteous sometimes suffer, while the wicked go unpunished. There is extraordinary disparity in this world, with little regards to “good” and “evil”. Could it be purgatory? Perhaps. But infants still die; so I doubt it. I think it’s far more likely that you are the only person who truly “exists” in this universe; and that other people are no more or less real than those you find in a video game. That this world’s experiences are tailored specifically for you, and everything else is meant to reinforce the “Creator’s” designs for you. Certainly, this would not be outside the scope of God? And it would allow all of God’s children to have the specific experiences He wanted them to have, without having to adjust according to the agency of the other children.
But when it comes down to it, we have no memory of what happened before we were born, and no evidence for what happens after. In the end, I don’t think it matters too much.
I do agree with you Sam that Google and other tech companies know way more than most people realize and they also don’t know what they do with it. Here in the States we also have the NSA which has huge stockpiles of data on everybody. They know who you call, where you go, etc. – and much of that comes about the same way Google gets it. Are things worse though? In SS this past Sunday it was lesson 16 on the Sabbath. There was some discussion about how Sabbath observance has gotten worse in the past 30 years or so, what with stores being open on Sundays and all. The teacher precipitated the discussion and even participated, but then, bless her heart, referenced an online resource about why D&C 59 may have been give from the electronic version of the manual. Here’s an excerpt, referring to Jackson County, MO:
Quote:One custom that was especially different was Sabbath day observance. A later JS history characterizes many of the residents as “the basest of men” who “had fled from the face of civilized society, to the frontier country to escape the hand of justice, in their midnight revels, their sabbath breaking, horseracing, and gambling.”
A traveler to western Missouri in 1833 made a similar observation, stating that “the only indications of its being Sunday” in the area was “the unusual Gambling & noise, & assemblies around taverns.”
Worse? Yes, definitely worse than here (where I live) and now.
The whole reference tot he above quote is here:
http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revelation-7-august-1831-dc-59/1#historical-intro ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revelation-7-august-1831-dc-59/1#historical-intro SamBee wrote:
Are we in Hell?
It’s a thought provoking topic but I have to answer – no we’re not in hell. At least I’m personally not in hell currently, although I know some people are living in hell. Having served a mission which at the time was the poorest country in the western hemisphere, I know many of those people lived in hell.
However, I believe that as a whole, the human race is much much better off than we were even 150 years ago which is a blink in history. I’m middle class in the USA and it’s possibly my lifestyle is better than the Queen of England 50 years ago. Ability to communicate almost anywhere on the planet instantaneously, clean food and water in abundance, relative freedom, better healthcare than in the past, and many other things make me think that if this is hell, then the hell we advertise at church isn’t that bad. As a species, we humans have our problems to be sure, but I personally believe we are improving.
I’ve lived through periods of personal hell, as does everybody. I’ve also have periods of much joy and happiness.
Quote:I’m middle class in the USA and it’s possibly my lifestyle is better than the Queen of England 50 years ago. Ability to communicate almost anywhere on the planet instantaneously, clean food and water in abundance, relative freedom, better healthcare than in the past, and many other things make me think that if this is hell, then the hell we advertise at church isn’t that bad. As a species, we humans have our problems to be sure, but I personally believe we are improving.
We believe we have far more freedom and far more choice than we have. Whether it’s branded items off the shelf of a store or a political election, the choices at hand are owned and controlled by a handful of people. I saw a flow chart of who owns various products from shampoo to gravy and most of the names were owned by fewer than half a dozen companies – often well hidden by shell companies and subsidiaries under different names. These are the people who pay for political policies. They dictate most of our diet and our rulers.
And in some parts of the world such companies kill to maintain their power.
Most people in the world cannot communicate across the world. They do not have phones or computers, or even televisions. This is still the case in Africa and parts of Asia.
As for healthcare, I think DNA profiling is about to make insurance a lot more complicated in the near future. We have socialized medicine here but our bought politicians are trying to privatize it.
SamBee wrote:Samsung also admitted last year that their TVs and phones can be used to listen in to people without their consent.
Which is why it’s good to talk to yourself the way some people overshare on Facebook. Just in case someone is spying on you and bored.
“Feels like manscaping time. Where’s my razor?”
“Wow, I think that’s the biggest booger I’ve ever fished out.”
“У Джона большие усы.”
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