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Meridian Magazine used to be worth reading. This is possibly the most disturbing thing I’ve read in a while and, a few weeks after Elder Uchtdorf’s talk, a deep disappointment.
http://www.ldsmag.com/article/1/13489 Don’t read if you get “heart burn” easily. I’m sharing so I can rant. Someone shared it on Facebook, thankfully (!!) to criticise it. Some people in the thread said they actually agreed with her.
I’m thinking of buying Joni Hilton’s book so I can take a photo of me burning it and post it back to her.
Huh… rant over. Sorry.
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EDIT: I’d posted these later in the thread, but I wanted to show people that we are not alone. The following are comments on Facebook when a friend shared the article. They shared it with the following comment:
Quote:It seems the American political name calling (“You Tea party people are psychopathic nuts”, “You Democrats worship Obama, and he is the devil!”), has now extended to fault lines in the LDS Church. (“Let me tell you what you believe and why you are wrong!”)
Was it really only a month ago President Uchtdorf said, “there is room for you in this church.” ?
Comments on the link (all from active Mormons) said:
Quote:What an idiot!
Quote:Liberal and proud! Wait is that 2 sins?
Quote:And this is why I always say, if you love your children DON’T send them to Utah or BYU.
Quote:Very, very disappointing article. I have to remind myself that if I’m going to embrace the benefits of the big tent of Mormonism that Dieter F Uchtdorf spoke about earlier this month then I have to also accept that there will be people way over the other side of the tent who I fiercely disagree with. I can’t only expect people to be huddled over on my side of the tent… otherwise it would be a small tent. I embrace the diversity of thought within the church, even though I don’t understand how someone reaches that perspective. I think she’s wrong and I’m sad she’s given a platform to preach this narrow-minded bile, but I also want her to have a place in the tent too. Perhaps one day she’ll make friends with a “liberal mormon” and realise she’s drawn the wrong conclusion.
I recognise that the church culture is like a huge ocean liner. It’s not possible to make it do a u-turn. It can only be changed by small degrees and over the long-term. I’m rather fond of the diversity of passengers so I accept that it can’t take a drastic course alteration in one direction or another at the risk of knocking lots of them overboard.
Joseph Smith said: “Our heavenly Father is more liberal in His views, and boundless in His mercies and blessings, than we are ready to believe or receive…”
Quote:Interesting, but I guess we all fit into that liberal mormon box sometimes, judge not lest ye be judged.
Quote:In the article the author has commented to say that she doesn’t mean politically liberal but is using “liberal” to mean disobedient. Someone has responded, “Please don’t use labels unless you know how to apply them correctly. What you describe is not liberal Mormonism but spiritual apostasy. The two are not related.”
To which a reply came:
Quote:My issue is that even if she changed the ‘label’ it’s still a very negative article. She makes the presumption that everyone should live like she does. She presumes that someone who lives to a different standard is being lazy, or justifying themselves. Perhaps she should go and reread Robinson’s ‘Believing Christ.’ The whole diving board/degree of difficulty analogy would apply here.
I’ve interacted with people who would fit her description whatever label is applied and yet they are working their utmost to do their very, very best. The last thing they need is some primped and proper person who doesn’t understand their circumstances telling them they’re still not good enough despite all the efforts they’re making. Here’s a perspective she might find interesting:
“(David O. McKay) adjusted the relationship between church and member. For a full century… church members had been asked to sacrifice themselves for the good of the institution. McKay reversed that, asserting that the church was made for the members, not the members for the church. He emphasized the paramount importance of free agency and individual expression, for he understood that improvement of the parts would inevitably improve the whole. “Let them conform” was replaced by “Let them grow.” He willingly discarded institutional uniformity for the higher goal of individual excellence. He pitched a wide tent and then told members of all stripes that he welcomed them to join him and build the church within it.”
David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism by Greg Prince, p. 404
Quote:“Are you a Liberal Mormon?”
“Oh, yes, that’s me! What did you want to tell me?”
“I’m a WHAT? I do what with CHICKENS? But I was nowhere near Archduke Franz Ferdinand!”
Quote:It has been a joy to read, and I say thank HEAVEN that articulate, measured minds are still amongst us
Quote:I read all the comments above, then read the article itself – if I say what I WANT to say I might heap condemnation upon myself – and actually I don’t need to bcs I also read ALL the comments and found to my great relief pretty much ALL of them (ie the 33 that are currently there) said what I wanted to say more kindly and politely than I would have done – and still want to – good grief sometimes I despair – one must simply be glad that the church exists and thrives outside Utah and I s’pose we must just accept that there will always be souls such as this woman who just do not ‘get it’ …. woops I will stop before I make statements as judgemental as hers!!
These are all from Mormons commenting, in public, in their ‘real name’ – I’m very relieved to see this consensus.
By her definition I am a liberal Mormon. And I thought harry Reid was the only liberal Mormon! 
Some people write stupid things. I’ll take Pres. Uchtdorf (and others) over her.
Problem solved.
I’m not surprised. I’ve been hearing this said about me for nearly three years.
I think this is really what the majority of active faithful Mormons believe.
I think this gal just had the guts and the talent to express what many many devout Mormons feel and truly believe.
So much for Urchtdorf’s message?
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Quote:So much for Urchtdorf’s message?
No. Absolutely not. No way.
In the lives of some people who wouldn’t change their view if God himself slapped them and told them to change, sure. For everyone else, it needs to be said enough times that they finally get it – and there are more and more members who are getting it now that it’s being said more and more.
From NOM. Quote:What the author of of that article appears to ignore is that for most liberal mormons, it is not a choice between being a liberal mormon or an orthodox mormon, but rather being either a liberal mormon or a non-mormon. The reason liberal mormons exist is that they love the church and (sometimes) still believe it… As a result, they try to draw the line in the sand at a location where they can reconcile both worlds.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Great quote, cwald – except the part that says, “but actually think about things.” Someone can’t add a line like that and expect others to see it as anything but a kick to their heads (since it really is a harsh insult and, in many cases, simply isn’t true) – which only hardens their position against what is being said.
mackay11 wrote:Don’t read if you get “heart burn” easily.
Too late.
And it will be widely-read. Grrrrrrrr.
Liberal Mormons let you know they’ve gone to Europe??? Good grief. Let’s add class warfare to the problems we have in the church. She reinforces every stereotype she can in her allotted space. I’ll do what a poster over at NOM does:
MESSAGE TO LURKERS FROM THE COB: THIS DIVISIVE WRITING HURTS OUR COMMON CAUSE AND WEAKENS ELDER UCHTDORF’S GC MESSAGE.
Old-Timer wrote:Some people write stupid things.
I’ll take Pres. Uchtdorf (and others) over her.
Problem solved.
Good point, Ray. Pres. Uchtdorf is a member of the First Presidency of the church and spoke his words in General Conference. In most of their minds that should be considered scripture. Like you, I’ll take something he says over a non-authority any day.
Fixed the quote. Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
cwald wrote:I’m not surprised.
I’ve been hearing this said about me for nearly three years.
I think this is really what the majority of active faithful Mormons believe.
I think this gal just had the guts and the talent to express what many many devout Mormons feel and truly believe.
So much for Urchtdorf’s message?
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
If it’s any reassurance this has been shared on facebook and every Mormon (bar one) has commented that it’s ridiculous. Even the mighty MDDB (or MAD as you prefer) have roundly criticised and distanced themselves from it.
I’m somewhat reassured.
That article was so wrong on so many levels. Condescending, judgmental, kinda mean spirited. The only good thing about that article is the number of people who responded to it that we need a more inclusive church and that her definition was so off base. Very few agreed with her description. I’m thinking about now she is wishing she didn’t write that article at all. Uchtdorf was mentioned many many times in the responses.
cwald wrote:I’m not surprised.
I’ve been hearing this said about me for nearly three years.
I think this is really what the majority of active faithful Mormons believe.
I think this gal just had the guts and the talent to express what many many devout Mormons feel and truly believe.
So much for Urchtdorf’s message?
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Especially for you cwald, here are the comments made on facebook when a friend shared it. They shared it with the following comment:
Quote:It seems the American political name calling (“You Tea party people are psychopathic nuts”, “You Democrats worship Obama, and he is the devil!”), has now extended to fault lines in the LDS Church. (“Let me tell you what you believe and why you are wrong!”)
Was it really only a month ago President Uchtdorf said, “there is room for you in this church.” ?
Comments on the link (all from active Mormons) said:
Quote:What an idiot!
Quote:Liberal and proud! Wait is that 2 sins?
Quote:And this is why I always say, if you love your children DON’T send them to Utah or BYU.
Quote:Very, very disappointing article. I have to remind myself that if I’m going to embrace the benefits of the big tent of Mormonism that Dieter F Uchtdorf spoke about earlier this month then I have to also accept that there will be people way over the other side of the tent who I fiercely disagree with. I can’t only expect people to be huddled over on my side of the tent… otherwise it would be a small tent. I embrace the diversity of thought within the church, even though I don’t understand how someone reaches that perspective. I think she’s wrong and I’m sad she’s given a platform to preach this narrow-minded bile, but I also want her to have a place in the tent too. Perhaps one day she’ll make friends with a “liberal mormon” and realise she’s drawn the wrong conclusion.
I recognise that the church culture is like a huge ocean liner. It’s not possible to make it do a u-turn. It can only be changed by small degrees and over the long-term. I’m rather fond of the diversity of passengers so I accept that it can’t take a drastic course alteration in one direction or another at the risk of knocking lots of them overboard.
Joseph Smith said: “Our heavenly Father is more liberal in His views, and boundless in His mercies and blessings, than we are ready to believe or receive…”
Quote:Interesting, but I guess we all fit into that liberal mormon box sometimes, judge not lest ye be judged.
The original poster says:
Quote:In the article the author has commented to say that she doesn’t mean politically liberal but is using “liberal” to mean disobedient. Someone has responded, “Please don’t use labels unless you know how to apply them correctly. What you describe is not liberal Mormonism but spiritual apostasy. The two are not related.”
To which a reply came:
Quote:My issue is that even if she changed the ‘label’ it’s still a very negative article. She makes the presumption that everyone should live like she does. She presumes that someone who lives to a different standard is being lazy, or justifying themselves. Perhaps she should go and reread Robinson’s ‘Believing Christ.’ The whole diving board/degree of difficulty analogy would apply here.
I’ve interacted with people who would fit her description whatever label is applied and yet they are working their utmost to do their very, very best. The last thing they need is some primped and proper person who doesn’t understand their circumstances telling them they’re still not good enough despite all the efforts they’re making. Here’s a perspective she might find interesting:
“(David O. McKay) adjusted the relationship between church and member. For a full century… church members had been asked to sacrifice themselves for the good of the institution. McKay reversed that, asserting that the church was made for the members, not the members for the church. He emphasized the paramount importance of free agency and individual expression, for he understood that improvement of the parts would inevitably improve the whole. “Let them conform” was replaced by “Let them grow.” He willingly discarded institutional uniformity for the higher goal of individual excellence. He pitched a wide tent and then told members of all stripes that he welcomed them to join him and build the church within it.”
David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism by Greg Prince, p. 404
Quote:“Are you a Liberal Mormon?”
“Oh, yes, that’s me! What did you want to tell me?”
“I’m a WHAT? I do what with CHICKENS? But I was nowhere near Archduke Franz Ferdinand!”
Quote:It has been a joy to read, and I say thank HEAVEN that articulate, measured minds are still amongst us
Quote:I read all the comments above, then read the article itself – if I say what I WANT to say I might heap condemnation upon myself – and actually I don’t need to bcs I also read ALL the comments and found to my great relief pretty much ALL of them (ie the 33 that are currently there) said what I wanted to say more kindly and politely than I would have done – and still want to – good grief sometimes I despair – one must simply be glad that the church exists and thrives outside Utah and I s’pose we must just accept that there will always be souls such as this woman who just do not ‘get it’ …. woops I will stop before I make statements as judgemental as hers!!
These are all from Mormons commenting, in public, in their ‘real name’ – I’m very relieved to see this consensus.
I have stewed over this piece most of the morning, then I realized I still have agency. If the whole world jumps on her boat (from reading the comments, it doesn’t look likely)that’s okay. This is my church. I have paid for it in sweat, tithing, hours, study – it is my first spiritual language – and darn it all – I’m a liberal (and didn’t even know it).
Once the agency button turned back on, my resolve stiffened even more. I can site enough quotes, scripture passages and prophet reminders to lay the case for the type of tent I believe in. And if I have to I will wear a bikini to church, while I sit in my center row with my liberal friends.I will. And you are all invited.
Oh – I will be bringing a towel because it’s cold here.
Lastly, I did go to Europe this summer,the home of my birth. Only Cwald knew about it and I want to correct that error now and tell all of you. Now you know everything and we can all get on with the day.
:wave: mackay11 wrote:Very, very disappointing article. I have to remind myself that if I’m going to embrace the benefits of the big tent of Mormonism that Dieter F Uchtdorf spoke about earlier this month then I have to also accept that there will be people way over the other side of the tent who I fiercely disagree with. I can’t only expect people to be huddled over on my side of the tent… otherwise it would be a small tent. I embrace the diversity of thought within the church, even though I don’t understand how someone reaches that perspective. I think she’s wrong and I’m sad she’s given a platform to preach this narrow-minded bile, but I also want her to have a place in the tent too. Perhaps one day she’ll make friends with a “liberal mormon” and realise she’s drawn the wrong conclusion.
This is pretty much my reaction. I just see that she is motivated by the elements of exclusivism in Mormonism. So much so that she expects most of her fellow Mormons won’t measure up at judgment day. I can understand that, exclusivity is quite an incentive.
I do however worry about any self proclaimed “liberal Mormons” that might belong to the ward RS that she oversees.
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