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Orson wrote:
hen someone is obviously absent of charity in this life I still don’t worry about their salvation because I believe in eternal progression. I believe everyone learns at their own pace but will always have the opportunity to learn and progress.
How charitable of you!
Orson wrote:I cannot convince myself I need to worry about eternal salvation, I guess I’m not wired that way. I am close to someone that is apostate (as far as the church is concerned) and I don’t have any worries about their standing in the next life.
I do naturally lean on what Moroni 7:47 teaches: “whoso is found possessed of [charity] at the last day, it shall be well with him.”
I believe very strongly that our major “test” of mortal life is to learn to gain charity or love and place it at the top of our list of priorities. Strong and specific religious opinions can sometimes get in the way of this objective.
When someone is obviously absent of charity in this life I still don’t worry about their salvation because I believe in eternal progression. I believe everyone learns at their own pace but will always have the opportunity to learn and progress.
This!
Matthew 25 is even more explicit in saying he will gather all nations and separate based on doing good. The “sheep” are promised eternal life.
And I also agree that this is one step in a very long journey.
I’m inclined to think we put ourselves in Hell by our actions, words and attitude, which remove us from God. I don’t think it works the way some folk think. You know how you feel bad when you hurt someone? Think of it in those terms. When my wife and I were sealed in the temple, the sealer said something that struck me. He said, “It is likely that all of us here today will be in the celestial kingdom someday. In fact, I think there will be more people who find the celestial kingdom than people who don’t. Many, many more.”
mackay11 wrote:Sometimes I’ve had moments of “what if…” but I don’t believe that way any more. There are too many scriptures and even leader quotes to support a universalistic view of the human family.
Add the quote from my sealer above to your list mackay.The existence of a celestial kingdom is a big
IFfor me, and lately I tend to be more rooted in this existence than the next. Death will come; that much is certain, but all of the theories about what comes after death are just that, theories. Why not be hopeful for the more peaceful, inclusive theories? I very much agree with Orson’s sentiment that this life is much more of a learning experience than it is a pass/fail test. Even if it is a pass/fail test of sorts, some Eastern traditions suggest we continually get do-overs until we get it right. That actually doesn’t seem ridiculous at all to me, though some may think it is.
I am amazed at how little a TR means to me personally now that it’s gone. The only peace it really brought me was a lack of expectation-driven guilt from family and friends…the false comfort of conformity. The only part that really felt good was that I had the stamp of approval from someone else. Over the past few months as the shallow nature of that validation has come to light, it has melted away. It’s been replaced by something deeper and much more meaningful. If I ever get a TR again, it will be because
1.I regain the feeling that the temple offers something I need that I can’t get elsewhere in life, and 2.either my beliefs fall back in line with the TR questions or the TR process evolves into something that’s more accepting of unorthodox views. Great topic by the way!
SamBee wrote:I’m inclined to think we put ourselves in Hell by our actions, words and attitude, which remove us from God. I don’t think it works the way some folk think. You know how you feel bad when you hurt someone? Think of it in those terms.
Me too, Sam. I actually think the final judgement is going to be much more of us judging ourselves than us being judged by someone. I think someone (Jesus or an appointee) will be the moderator/prompter/questioner, but I sort of see it like a temple recommend interview. The bishop/stake president really aren’t judging anyone in those interviews – our own answers stand in judgement, and only we as individuals know the true answers for ourselves.
Quote:I very much agree with Orson’s sentiment that this life is much more of a learning experience than it is a pass/fail test
I keep having the same thoughts…inspired by experiences in my work. I have seen a string of managers in my company over the last 20 years. They all confront roughly the same issues each year. They come in new, make a lot of the same mistakes, and then eventually grow, and move on (or out). I see the younger generation (my kids) makin the same mistakes, having the same joys (like with material things) that once gave me joy, but no longer do.
It’s as if this whole experience is for us to learn within –not to necessarily achieve any tangible objective (like beautify society or someone improve the world permanent) — it’s a cycle of growth, death, and then renewal as new actors take the stage.
I have a hard time believing this won’t continue throughout eternity…
I think there will be some balancing as well. Those who feel guilt for stupid things, like smoking a single joint forty years ago, or stealing candy when they were six, will be forgiven because they have suffered enough.
But those who are battle hardened and feel little – drug lords for example, will end up feeling the full force of their actions if they have not disowned them (repented) and made no effort to undo them.
Those who are spiritually proud will be made aware of their hypocrisy. And those who beat themselves up, but are good people will come to realize that fact.
That’s how I imagine judgement will be.
mackay11 wrote:The Givens say something about a TR not being a “heavenly hall pass.”
If you find the full quote sometime, please share. Thanks.
SilentDawning wrote:For those of you who are not full-fledged TR holders —
are you concerned about the eternal salvation of your family? Do you feel anxiety or concern that your family may not be together in the eternities?Or if you have no family in the church are you concerned you will attract some form of personal/individual damnation due to your unwillingness to live the gospel as a full TR-holding person?…A friend of mine asked me about this — whether my mortality is bothering me since I’m not a full-fledged TR-holder any longer. I would be interested in your answers. Not at all, actually the level of control the Church currently has over the average follower actually bothers me even more than any truth claims they continue to make that I already believe are false and I think the temple recommends and interviews play a major part in this. Think about it, if you want to be a good Mormon accepted by other Church members then who you marry, what you wear, what you drink, what you believe, how much money you donate, and more are not really up to you. So many things have already been decided for you by others. The truth is that we don’t really know what will happen when we die so it doesn’t make that much sense to me to go overboard trading so much here and now for the sake of some promised future rewards that could easily never materialize.
I already have my doubts about the idea of a final judgment but even if there is such a thing it still makes more sense to me that a truly just god would judge people based on who they are as a person rather than whether they repeatedly checked off items on a list. To me it couldn’t be more obvious that you can be a perfectly decent person without having a temple recommend and on the other hand you could literally despise your neighbors and even your own family and treat them terribly and still honestly answer every single temple recommend question the way the Church expects. That’s because it’s mostly about loyalty to the Church and its established traditions more than real personal development, ethics, etc. which really exposes the man behind the curtain from my perspective.
I think I could have written most of what DA wrote. However, with less of the confidence his tone portrays. I still leave myself open to the idea that God’s kingdom is a lot like the LDS Church (God’s kingdom on earth), and believe I could be wrong. Quote:if you want to be a good Mormon accepted by other Church members . . .
You show up for church and don’t act like a jerk. I know FAR too many members who don’t fit the other requirements you listed but are accepted and loved by the membership to believe, in most cases, it’s more than attendance and attitude for most people.
The organizational structure might exert different pressures, and some members are more judgmental than others, but my experience is that the vast majority of members accept pretty much anyone who shows up, pitches in (and even that isn’t required, often) and is generally a nice person.
Ray, I really think you nailed it, and the more I think of your post the more I think how true that is and how I think acceptance is 90% exactly what you said. The other 10% probably doesn’t matter either. Show up, and don’t be a jerk.
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