Arnold says, "Time for a talk about marijuana"

[Anonymous]

Okay … I thought I could keep my opinions to myself, but … here goes …

How many of you who have responded thus far can honestly say you don’t mind the smell of pot? How many of you would be OK with your children smoking pot? How many of you would smoke it? Would you really want to be around people smoking it? Oh, yeah, that’s right … perhaps you can get a better high from secondhand pot smoke than cigarette smoke. Oy!!!

I admit, I’m surprised that so far most of the comments are in favor of legalizing marijuana. I don’t understand the cavalier attitude towards legalization. Or am I misinterpreting what I’ve been reading?

I, personally, do not want to see marijuana legalized. Do we really need a bunch of stoners driving around? Haven’t we seen enough tragic accidents as a result of drunk driving? Why on earth would anyone want to cause more harm to innocent people?

“Hey, babe, how about some weed?” “Man, this really makes me mellow.” “Um … where did we leave the baby?” “Oh, yeah … What? We don’t have a baby? Are you sure?”

Am I being ridiculous? I don’t think so. I am opposed to anything that causes a person to lose all sense of reality and morality. The movie “Wild In The Streets” comes to mind. (If you are not familiar with the movie … as a friend of mine would say, “Google it!”)

And, yes, I tried pot in my teen years. I absolutely did not like the high, light-headed feeling it gave me. And, yes, I did drink alcohol in my teen years. Puking on the sidewalk … now that was attractive.

Anyone remember the incident recently where a mother let a female friend blow pot smoke in her young son’s mouth? The son has Down Syndrome. He started choking and crying and his mom told him to stop crying. This mom and her friend thought they were being funny. They are both serving time in prison. Now that’s justice! Here’s a link to a news report:

http://www.nbc-2.com/Articles/readarticle.asp?articleid=29109&z=3

Please think twice when it comes to legalizing marijuana. It’s not harmless. It most certainly harms innocent men, women and children.

Let’s see … I just brought up the WoW in another post. One of the responses mentioned NO alcohol, NO tobacco, NO coffee, NO tea. But YES to pot????? 😯

I could go on and on, but I’ll only raise my blood pressure.

[Anonymous]

I think a better comparison to marijuana is tobacco. One of the things that has not been mentioned here is that pot causes lung cancer, and is much worse than cigarettes. From that point of view, it is a big health hazard. I can see that the future may make tobacco illegal as well. As we know, rights of smokers are being limited more and more, and I really see tobacco earning the same status as pot.

Interestingly, doctors used to prescribe cigarettes as a stress reducer. It does work, but does anyone really think that is sound medical advice?

[Anonymous]

Kalola wrote:

It’s not harmless. It most certainly harms innocent men, women and children.

Let’s see … I just brought up the WoW in another post. One of the responses mentioned NO alcohol, NO tobacco, NO coffee, NO tea. But YES to pot?????

I absolutely agree that pot is just the sort of substance that the WoW is telling us to stay away from, and I also agree that it is a harmful narcotic. My point was that our laws are hypocritical when it comes to these substances since alcohol and tobacco are legal and pot is not. Perhaps it is just my opinion, but I really feel that pot is the least dangerous of the three (that does not mean that I think it is harmless).

[Anonymous]

Kalola wrote:

I admit, I’m surprised that so far most of the comments are in favor of legalizing marijuana. I don’t understand the cavalier attitude towards legalization. Or am I misinterpreting what I’ve been reading?

There are different ways of looking at it. Making marijuana legal makes it sound like it is good, because anything that is legal is good right? It would be like the government promoting the use of marijuana. Bad things are illegal, sure. But not all things that are legal are good/moral. I personally don’t think the use of marijuana should treated and dealt with in the criminal justice system. I think it is a medical and spiritual problem. I would rather not throw people in jail for smoking pot. I would rather help them figure out why they are self-medicating themselves with that plant and try to help them find other solutions. Prison doesn’t do that at all. It makes everything worse.

If someone uses pot in an irresponsible way and causes damage to others, that is a crime that society should punish. Drive while stoned and endanger the lives of others (or actually cause harm)? Punish those people, just like we do with alcohol-related damages to others.

Kalola wrote:

I, personally, do not want to see marijuana legalized. Do we really need a bunch of stoners driving around? Haven’t we seen enough tragic accidents as a result of drunk driving? Why on earth would anyone want to cause more harm to innocent people?

I understand what you are getting at. We already have all those bad things happening. Millions of people use marijuana. The law isn’t stopping people. All those terrible things are already here, and marijuana is illegal. It isn’t working.

[Anonymous]

If I may be a fly in the ointment of legalization, I found this article at http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/evidence99/marijuana/Health_1.html

Quote:

Smoking marijuana regularly (a joint a day) can damage the cells in the bronchial passages which protect the body against inhaled microorganisms and decrease the ability of the immune cells in the lungs to fight off fungi, bacteria, and tumor cells. For patients with already weakened immune systems, this means an increase in the possibility of dangerous pulmonary infections, including pneumonia, which often proves fatal in AIDS patients.

Studies further suggest that marijuana is a general “immunosuppressant” whose degenerative influence extends beyond the respiratory system. Regular smoking has been shown to materially affect the overall ability of the smoker’s body to defend itself against infection by weakening various natural immune mechanisms, including macrophages (a.k.a. “killer cells”) and the all-important T-cells. Obviously, this suggests the conclusion, which is well-supported by scientific studies, that the use of marijuana as a medical therapy can and does have a very serious negative effect on patients with pre-existing immune deficits resulting from AIDS, organ transplantation, or cancer chemotherapy, the very conditions for which marijuana has most often been touted and suggested as a treatment. It has also been shown that marijuana use can accelerate the progression of HIV to full-blown AIDS and increase the occurrence of infections and Kaposi’s sarcoma. In addition, patients with weak immune systems will be even less able to defend themselves against the various respiratory cancers and conditions to which consistent marijuana use has been linked, and which are discussed briefly under “Respiratory Illnesses.”

In conclusion, it seems that the potential dangers presented by the medical use of marijuana may actually contribute to the dangers of the diseases which it would be used to combat. Therefore, I suggest that marijuana should not be permitted as a therapy, at least until a good deal more conclusive research has been completed concerning its debilitating effect on the immune system.

For more on this topic, please see Donald P. Tashkin, M.D., “Effects of Marijuana on the Lung and Its Immune Defenses,” Secretary’s Youth Substance Abuse Prevention Intiative: Resource Papers, March 1997, Center for Substance Abuse Prevention. Pages 33-51 of this address can be found at the website of the Indiana Prevention Resource Center at Indiana University, located at http://www.drugs.indiana.edu/druginfo/tashkin- marijuana.html.

I think tobacco should be made illegal as well, and I think we are on the road to that. I agree with those who don’t think pot smokers should be in the criminal justice system–I don’t believe that is productive, but I also don’t think marijuana is nearly as harmless as people on this forum have been touting. The comparisons to alcohol are wrong–it is more similar to tobacco, IMO.

[Anonymous]

Kalola (and anyone else), lest my comments be seen as “pro-marijuana” – they aren’t. I would love to see all non-prescription narcotics and highly addictive, destructive substances eliminated from use. However, if we are going to do so, I believe we should consider all the consequences and do so across the board OR only for those that include a high likelihood of causing harm to those who do NOT use them by those who do. At the very least, we should rank order them and outlaw those that rank above a certain acceptable minimum – since, after all, triple cheeseburgers, fries and a large soda could be considered highly addictive, destructive substances.

I am not “pro-marijuana”. I really dislike, however, the way we currently go about handling the type of substances I described in the first paragraph – and if we are going to “wage war on drugs” and include marijuana on the list . . . I’d rather teach correct principles and let them govern themselves with that particular substance.

[Anonymous]

mormonheretic wrote:

In conclusion, it seems that the potential dangers presented by the medical use of marijuana may actually contribute to the dangers of the diseases which it would be used to combat.

Look at me, I’m an armchair medical scientist now!! 😆

I don’t know anything about medicine or medical journals but that statement is false. Marijuana therapy is NOT used to “combat” diseases. It is used for pain management, appetite enhancer, etc. I don’t doubt the research done about the immune system vulnerabilities but that last statement makes the study come under question due to preset bias…. or something

btw, MH didn’t say that, the study he put in his post did.

[Anonymous]

Yes, it was actually some guy from Harvard who said the quote swimordie highlighted above.

[Anonymous]

“some guy from Harvard”

Fwiw, I knew some wonderful, bright, insightful people there – and some idiots of the highest order. I also knew one student who was stoned pretty much every day for four years. He maintained excellent grades, but it was easy to see the effects overall of his use.

[Anonymous]

This brings up an interesting dichotomy for me. I’ve never tried marijuana and never wanted to. Same with alcohol and cigarettes. I think all these substances are highly damaging social problems, and at best, a serious waste of time and money.

That being said, I don’t think they should be illegal. For one thing, I see alcohol as being much worse for people than marijuana. We tried prohibition and it didn’t work because, ultimately we are a democracy, and people want their booze. We’ve tried prohibition of marijuana and it hasn’t worked either. Yes, the prohibition is still in effect, but what good is it doing? Pretty much everyone in my ultra-conservative, Utah Valley High School had ready access to marijuana. Making pot illegal is not stopping its use much, but it is just making criminals of a huge part of society. Sending people to jail for smoking pot is much more damaging than smoking pot, in my opinion.

So, that’s enough ranting. To sum up: I don’t believe in using marijuana, but I support others’ right to make that decision for themselves. Not everything bad should be illegal.

[Anonymous]

Kalola wrote:

I admit, I’m surprised that so far most of the comments are in favor of legalizing marijuana. I don’t understand the cavalier attitude towards legalization. Or am I misinterpreting what I’ve been reading?

No, you’re interpreting just fine, but you seem to not understand the nature of freedom, unintended consequences, or have studied prohibition. It would seem that you have made the following assumption:

legalizing marijuana == morally okay to use marijuana.

I think Ray has made it clear this is not the case.

Kalola wrote:

I, personally, do not want to see marijuana legalized. Do we really need a bunch of stoners driving around? Haven’t we seen enough tragic accidents as a result of drunk driving? Why on earth would anyone want to cause more harm to innocent people?

Please provide ample evidence that having marijuana illegal means there are less “stoners” driving around.

Kalola wrote:

Am I being ridiculous? I don’t think so. I am opposed to anything that causes a person to lose all sense of reality and morality. The movie “Wild In The Streets” comes to mind. (If you are not familiar with the movie … as a friend of mine would say, “Google it!”)

Ah, herein lies the rub. You seem to fall into the camp that other conservatives fall into. That is, “if I oppose it, it should be illegal.” Just because you are opposed to something doesn’t mean you (or anyone else) should get to dictate, by force what they must or must not do. After all, that’s what illegalized drugs does, uses force to enforce morality. Nothing could be further from the ideas, and laws enshrined in the Constitution of this great country. It is not our job, or the job of the gov’t to enforce morality (something we have strayed from dramatically). From a gov’t perspective (on moral issues at least), there are merely two questions that need to be asked.

1. Does it infringe on the rights of others?

2. Is it fair (in a discrimination sense)?

That means that it’s not okay to be aggressive, physically, towards another person. It’s not okay to drink and drive because you endanger others. But if you want to get high, and can do so safely, by all means go ahead. It is against the very nature of the plan of salvation to coerce people into righteousness.

Kalola wrote:

Please think twice when it comes to legalizing marijuana. It’s not harmless. It most certainly harms innocent men, women and children.

I hope I have made my point clear by now. Once again, no one thinks it’s harmless, that’s not the point. You seem to have made the connection that since something is harmful to an individual, that we should, by force, keep him/her from doing that. I am opposed to making alcohol, tobacco, drugs (except for the most harmful), SSM, adultery, fornication, and any other strictly immoral (that is doesn’t infringe on the two questions) action that a consenting adult can engage in illegal. The alternative is what we have now. We have overcrowded prisons, a ridiculously dangerous drug war culture that destroys the nation, we spend billions in fighting marijuana use, and have contributed significantly to our own immigration problems by encouraging the drug cartel wars in Mexico. The unintended consequences of the drug war are so horrific.

I would challenge anyone who supposes that keeping marijuana illegal benefits innocent people to provide ample evidence indicating that it is more beneficial than having it made legal. My research indicates the very opposite is true largely due to the culture that is created by having something be illegal. Prohibition anyone? Same thing there. Same goes for alcohol, tobacco, and other mind-altering substances.

[Anonymous]

I just came across an article dealing with the pros and cons of legalizing marijuana.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31375064/ns/health-addictions/

I must say I’m torn here. Throwing people in jail is not helping, or an appropriate punishment, IMO. But I believe its ties to lung cancer are not helpful either. For governments to try to tax it, it also counterproductive, because it if is taxed, then it becomes a source of revenue to be cultivated, rather than discouraged. If we tax cigarettes and marijuana too heavily, it will force users underground to get it too, free from the government coffers.

I don’t see any good answers here.

[Anonymous]

mormonheretic wrote:

I don’t see any good answers here.

That’s true of all of these types of issues: how do we save people from themselves? (abortion, trans fat, tobacco, etc.)

There is a strong argument to make that maximizing individual liberty while maximizing personal responsibility is the best system that humans have come up with. It’s definitely what the founders had in mind.

An example from the opposite side of this: drunk drivers get unusually light sentences relative to the seriousness of their crime (and its potential damage).

[Anonymous]

mormonheretic wrote:

For governments to try to tax it, it also counterproductive, because it if is taxed, then it becomes a source of revenue to be cultivated, rather than discouraged.

That’s true, you’re right. This would be a delicate balance, and I am not as firm on my position of taxing it.

swimordie wrote:

That’s true of all of these types of issues: how do we save people from themselves? (abortion, trans fat, tobacco, etc.)

Herein lies the problem. The answer to the question is that we don’t. In my opinion, the optimal solution is to make the best information we have as society available to everyone so they can make informed decisions. It’s not the gov’t’s job to save people from themselves. Leave that to religion. It’s gov’t’s job to maximize individual liberty while keeping people safe from external threats and maximize personal responsibility (as you said). Once again, anything that is not directly a violation of my two points above 1. infringing on the rights of others and 2. equality among everyone is not in the realm of gov’t responsibility (for moral issues anyway). That also means that we don’t enforce equality, only disallow inequality. We have crossed the line on these issues a lot in the past 10 years in this country.

It seems to me that one of the greatest lessons from all of history is that control of people doesn’t work. It never has, and it never will. This extends to other countries, economies, morality, and personal freedom. The same lesson is learned from economics and yet we are violating it at every turn. The more the gov’t meddles in our lives, and economy, the worse it gets.

As for drunk driving you’re absolutely right. I think sentences should be harsher. You can drink, get high, self medicate, have consensual sex with people, and do virtually whatever you want as long as you act responsibly. If you endanger others, or violate the rights of others we can’t tolerate it. If you are an adult, we expect you to act like one. If you don’t we will have to babysit you like a child. As soon as you decide to act like an adult we’ll let you out (after appropriate time to think about it).

Sorry, don’t mean to turn this into a political forum.

[Anonymous]

jmb275 (and everyone else), Please be VERY careful about throwing out characterizations based on one opinion about one topic.

I say this because of the comment labeling kalola a “conservative” (actually using the words “other conservatives”). In a way, that’s funny (like when a regular commenter on Mormon Matters accused me of censoring conservative beliefs because they scared me – or some such ridiculous phrasing); however, it’s so far from accurate about kalola that it has the potential to be very damaging – especially on a site like this. We would HATE it if someone characterized us based on our comments about one topic; let’s make sure we don’t do it to others. I KNOW there was no harm intended; we simply should be very aware of this tendency, especially given our own desires to be understood and accepted.

We need to keep these things in mind as we comment here. For further clarification, please read the following link from my personal blog:

“Judge Righteous Judgment” (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2009/06/judge-righteous-judgment.html)

[Author]

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