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Patrick Mason, author of Planted: Belief and Belonging in an Age of Doubt, spoke at the FIAR conference and Deseret News ran an article. http://beta.deseretnews.com/article/865659562/LDS-scholar-calls-for-a-more-embracing-Mormonism-that-rejects-fear.html ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://beta.deseretnews.com/article/865659562/LDS-scholar-calls-for-a-more-embracing-Mormonism-that-rejects-fear.html A couple quotes that hit home for me:
Quote:What those with questions and doubts need are active, sympathetic listeners. “We’re so eager to defend the church,” he said during the question-and-answer part of his presentation Friday, “that we talk, talk, talk, talk, talk when people just want to be heard.”
Indeed, I think most of us have experienced this. I don’t now if it’s because of the fear mentioned in the article or because people just feel they need to defend the church or whatever, but all I wanted during my years of inactivity during my crisis was for somebody to listen. (That’s how I ended up here and why I love this place so much.)
Quote:“My strong belief,” Mason said during his presentation, “is that the most important thing we can do to empathize with and minister compassionately to those who are experiencing doubt and disaffection is make the church a more welcoming place for those who struggle. It is our responsibility in our church callings but also as parents and siblings and friends to create conditions in which people can feel comfortable working through their questions and doubts in the midst of the body of Christ, rather than feeling excluded from it.
“I believe that a more embracing Mormonism may be the most important factor in helping people more fully embrace Mormonism.”
I believe that too. Seriously, if just one person had something to me like “You don’t have to believe it all” or “It’s not all or nothing” I may not have become inactive or stayed that way so long.
I hope FAIR publishes a full transcript of his presentation.
I think Patrick really gets the issue(s). I agree 100% that fears drives not only the defensiveness in the church, but also the unwillingness to have someone in our midst that has any issues. But I am sad at the same time. It isn’t going to happen in my lifetime or before at least half of my kids leave the church.
Where are our leaders on this? Why are apologists leading out in this area? I only see defensive reactions from more woe is the world speeches and writing essays that only look progressive to those that have not dug into the details much.
I’m sorry, but why would you ever want to talk to a church leader about your doubts and concerns. You end up on the radar, become a project, and are marked as a doubter, as someone who’s suspect and if you get a calling you’ll be put in a place where you’ll do the least damage. I really like our current and former bishop but to go in and try and discuss how I feel about the church, it’s history, and it’s claims wouldn’t solve, change, or improve anything. For me the closet is just fine. Right now I can continue to teach GD and focus on the principles and finesse and/or avoid the historicity. If I tell them what I really feel about the Jaredites’ boats or King Lamoni’s horses and chariots, I’d be out of a calling, a community, and possibly a family. I read Mason’s book and enjoyed it but it didn’t help much since he said early on that he was a believer to begin with. Talking about doubt and loss of faith when you’ve never felt it or lost it doesn’t help much with credibility. Sorry, a bit of a raw nerve. I agree completely with the ideal he describes, and I am grateful that he and others are saying it – but that ideal has to happen through the more traditional members changing their perspectives and actions. That will happen relatively quickly only as more apostles speak like Elder Wirthlin and Pres. Uchtdorf. I have heard more General Conference talks like their talks in the last decade or so than in the rest of my lifetime, but it needs to continue at an even greater pace for this ideal to be realized. I can do my part in my own ears and stake, but people who are willing right now to be the voice and have the social capital to do it and thrive don’t exist in too many wards and branches. I am comfortable in that role, but I respect that most here are not, for example – for the reason GBSmith articulated so well.
Having said all of that, it is happening. My kids’ generations simply see the world differently than my and my parents’ generations – and the current leadership is NOT the leadership of my youth and early adulthood. It needs to happen at a faster pace, and that will happen only as more of the top leadership embrace it – or, at least, stop fighting it.
I see this from both sides. I appreciate and agree with LH and GBS’s points. I too struggled with Mason’s believer status, then I thought about cancer patients. Their treatment providers have never experienced cancer, but they are valuable in helping cancer to not be the killer disease it has been in the past. The provider may not even have empathy but their skills do serve powerful purpose. I see Mason as similar to that. Because of that his efforts maybe hit or miss, but they are an effort to heal and not just dismiss the disease. I also see his words as vital to the growth that does need to happen. True he isn’t a GA, but his book was published by a safe TBM outlet.This offers a source of hope for the future.
His words at FAIR may have been more directed at FAIR than anyone else. FAIR has often held itself as the “life boat” and yet by it’s actions has inflamed the people who were falling overboard.
I agree we still aren’t at the place where we can walk into a Bishop and say here’s my list, help or include me. But none of us know who heard Mason speak, maybe someone’s dad will go home and rethink his response. Maybe a woman will be a RS president in the future and can help. Or someone’s VT or HT will become that good listener. If even those small efforts begin, the tide will find it’s way to turn.
I have come to terms with my vision of the church not working in my lifetime, yet I sense it won’t take as long as we feel now. I watch my devout daughter taking her nuanced and unbelieving parents experiences with her as she moves forward. I get the texts during church when she has boldly shared something because of her home experience. The story isn’t done yet.
I am grateful for Patrick Mason’s willingness to risk as much as he can for those of us who hurt. It’s not perfect but curing a bad disease never was easy.
Believe me, I am the first one to say don’t go see your bishop about your doubts and questions and to stay under the radar as much as possible. Mason’s idea is an ideal, and while I would love for the ideal to be reality, it’s far from there. Nevertheless, I do believe, as Ray points out, the ship is turning. There are people in many wards and stakes who will listen, not judge, and not throw people under the bus. And Leaders like Pres. Uchtdorf (all of you know I have a serious man crush on him) are saying things that we would not have heard a GA say 20 or 30 years ago. Progress toward the ideal is being made. I guess I’m a litle confused about why it bothers some of you that Mason is a “believer.” I’ll point out that three more of my heroes, the Givens and Bushman, are also believers. As you probably know I have some serious doubts and disbeliefs. But I am still a believer, too. I don’t believe the BoM is what it’s claimed to be, and there are lots of reasons for that. I won’t stand up in F&TM tomorrow and say “I know (or even believe) the BoM is true.” But I do believe it is a good book that can draw others closer to God and Christ and that it testifies of Christ. Therefore, I do believe in the BoM. I recognize that some of you are looking at such an idea as too nuanced, and perhaps not believing at all. But it’s not all or nothing, it’s not all right or all wrong – there is room for spectrum of belief and few bishops will argue with me when I say I believe in the BoM or Joseph, or a myriad of other things (and since I won’t argue back it would become moot). To me, when Mason, Terryl, Fiona, and Bushman say they are believers, this is what I hear – they believe but not necessarily all of it, and they
believeas opposed to knowing. I used to wince at the idea of choosing to believe – until I realized that I have chosen to believe in some things. DJ asked Quote:
I guess I’m a litle confused about why it bothers some of you that Mason is a “believer.” I’ll point out that three more of my heroes, the Givens and Bushman, are also believers. As you probably know I have some serious doubts and disbeliefs. But I am still a believer, too.Great question. I think for me I ebb and flow with the believer part. Like you I am thrilled with Givens, Bushman, and Mason. I really do appreciate their words, work and effort. I also have times, and Planted was one of those, where they appear to have not fallen down ever, and in my dark moments that makes me angry. Mason is the youngest at doing this bit and sometimes gives the impression like he knows all the stuff but it didn’t phase him. In my mind that doesn’t help the cause of someone who finds themselves drowning in agony.
I know that is not their intent and I feel braver because of them. And I think Mason is making huge strides. And believers will more likely listen to another believer. I should be more grateful.
I feel with Mason he can understand why someone might hear the history and part from the church. I think he has even said he does not quite know why he continues to believe while others don’t. Bushman seems like a kind patient grandpa that would love for you to believe like he does, but would love you all the same if you said you don’t believe. I wish we had more of them in the church and certainly in the ranks of leadership. Both I the fact that they know the facts and have patience and don’t seem to judge others that don’t believe everything. I feel a bit different about Givens. I in no way dislike him and his wonderful wife, but I get lost in his flowery words. They often placate / distract from my questions but the next day I don’t feel like I am anywhere closer to having questions answered. Almost as if someone is trying to distract me. I am not accusing him of having that as a motive. It is just how I feel after listening to him or reading his books. I admire him as I think it would be easy to just coast into retirement and instead he is really trying to help.
I agree Givens can be harder to read, and I like Crucible much more than God Who Weeps because of that – it’s a much easier and clearer read. I don’t know why I believe in Christ, either. I don’t particularly see the need for an atonement, and I’m not sure about lots of other things with Jesus. Yet, I do believe in Christ.
I don’t understand what’s wrong with guys like these we’re discussing being believers and saying so while understanding why others don’t believe and not judging us for it. In fact, I think they are pretty much what we’d like to see in others in the church. Likewise, even though they believe they can point out things that cause others to doubt and question but not feel they necessarily have to attempt to explain those things. I once became somewhat offended when a friend of mine called Givens an apologist. I’m not a fan of apologists, but that’s mostly because most Mormon apologists feel they must try to explain the sometimes unexplainable and in doing so make leaps and connections that just aren’t there (mental gymnastics). My offense came because I don’t see Givens as doing that. But when I looked up the definition of apologist, Givens fits – he is a defender of the faith. It could be said I am also an apologist to some extent because I do sometimes defend the church from unwarranted criticism, and I do believe there is much good in the church and its people and will say so.
I think GBSmith’s post does an excellent job of stating why anyone in the church would self identify as a believer, regardless of how well they would do under strict cross examination. Maybe I’m wrong but the Givens, Bushman, etc. all enjoy a place of prominence (however limited) in the community. That’s not a bad thing, on some level we may worry how our heterodoxy might affect our relationship within our community. I’d hate for a slight difference in belief to serve as a barrier to how the Givens, Bushmans, and GBSmiths of the world can reach out to saints that can’t be reached via orthodox methods.
I mean, I’m a believer too but if someone were to sit down with me and really get to know what I think that’s when several other labels would start coming out.
Perhaps that is one of the reasons why there are so many Christian sects. People that all consider themselves believers in Christ but their beliefs are slightly different than another denomination so a label is created and people divide up.
I do like that FAIR is sending signals to be more inclusive. I’m saying this with tongue firmly in cheek but I’ve seen people make the argument that is a variant of: it’s like two people that are throwing rocks at each other, one person lobs a rock and hits the other person square in the jaw but then realizes there are no more rocks to throw and the person they hit in the jaw is sitting atop a big pile of rocks that have been thrown at them and they and smiling. Suddenly the person without rocks wants to call a truce.
I’m sure that’s a mischaracterization of people’s true motives but putting the rocks down
isthe answer. Last thing, then I’ll shut up. I do like that FAIR is making these kinds of statements… but we don’t base SM talks on FAIR press releases. We don’t base our 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th Sunday lessons during PH/RS on things FAIR has said. You get where I’m going?
DarkJedi wrote:
Quote:I believe that a more embracing Mormonism may be the most important factor in helping people more fully embrace Mormonism.”
I believe that too.
Seriously, if just one person had something to me like “You don’t have to believe it all” or “It’s not all or nothing” I may not have become inactive or stayed that way so long.I think this is what many people are hanging on by their fingernails to hear – from someone at the top. Not, come be with us while you struggle to believe it all, but come be with us after your struggle and realization that you don’t believe it all.
Editing to add something Patrick Mason quoted at FAIR. I don’t know the exact context.
Quote:“It is customary to blame secular science and anti-religious philosophy for the eclipse of religion in modern society. It would be more honest to blame religion for its own defeats. Religion declined not because it was refuted, but because it became irrelevant, dull, oppressive, insipid. When faith is completely replaced by creed, worship by discipline, love by habit; when the crisis of today is ignored because of the splendor of the past; when faith becomes an heirloom rather than a living fountain; when religion speaks only in the name of authority rather than with the voice of compassion–its message becomes meaningless.”
― Abraham Joshua Heschel, God in Search of Man: A Philosophy of Judaism
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