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I’ve been on here now for about four months. That is when my faith journey started. I’ve always struggled with various issues, but until now have been able to deal with them as they came up and satisfy my concerns with what seemed to be a plausible answer for each. The thing that tipped me was garments, as many of you know. From there I have started reading so much church history that my “shelf” is breaking. At this point I am not sure how things will work out for me. I have always been extremely faithful, but I feel like a lot of what I believed was just culture is actually doctrine. That said, I have had many good spiritual experiences, and being a member of the church has helped me to become a wholesome individual. I have always been somewhat of a ‘rebel’ though. I stayed true to my own beliefs whether they went against the grain or not. That actually helped me stay strong through my teenage years because I was the only Mormon in my group of friends. My parents and the ward I grew up in taught me that I could be anything I wanted to be; I don’t remember feeling like I shouldn’t have a career. Then I went to BYU and I was shocked. It seemed like all of a sudden the church was telling me that my ONLY option was to be a mom and that the ONLY reason I needed to go to school was to get married. I let myself get frustrated with this for about a month, I thought, “why am I even paying for school if all I’m going to do is stay home and raise kids?” Then I got my patriarchal blessing, which talked about my career AND my family and I was so happy. Whenever I was told that I shouldn’t have a career I finally had religious ‘doctrine’ to back it up my desires. Once I left BYU I came to a place where the teachings seemed a little more normal, but there was still an over emphasis on women being only domestic. This is just not in my nature. I love kids, but I am not domestic at all. Personality tests tell me that I’m a ‘provider/leader’ personality type. I am strong willed, ready to fight for my cause, aggressive, outspoken, logical and opinionated-anything but docile, domestic, emotional, quietly spiritual, nurturing and submissive. It seemed like all the things they were telling me that women innately ‘just are’ were not me at all. (I realize that some of my traits are bad and some of the other ones are good…just trying to be honest.) I struggled with this for awhile, thought maybe I needed to force myself to be something that I wasn’t. Somehow, with all the new emphasis on “yes women, you are equal” I decided that most of the sexism in gender roles that I felt was just cultural Mormonism. That worked really well for me, until now.
Once I started delving deeper into our history I was shocked to find that women used to be able to give priesthood blessings, ect. When I looked further into polygamy I was appalled. (Even MORE appalled I should say.) I had bought into the ‘well, they needed to raise up seed unto the Lord’ apologetic. I was finding so much shocking information that it my brain hurt. I couldn’t deny my experiences with God, the priesthood and the Book of Mormon, but I began to question so many of the details. It suddenly seemed like so many of our rules were unimportant. I was doing all of this studying in an extremely prayerfully way and I felt Gods love. It made me feel like the straight and narrow is actually many broad and curvy paths.
Because I was starting this intense faith journey during my engagement, I decided to get married in the temple anyhow. (I won’t repeat all of that drama, enough of it is here already.) I decided that it was too fragile of a time to change such a big life plan. And I was worthy. I didn’t have a horrible experience, but I did not feel the spirit there. I plan on going back once a month for at least a year. I’m hoping something will eventually speak to me in there.
Since going through the temple more issues and concerns have been raised in my mind. It seems to me that as a woman getting married and going through the temple makes you lose your direct connection with God. From the way the covenants are worded to the stances in the prayer circle, it made me feel distant from the Heavenly Father I have always felt so close to. I have felt since then that I was wrong about the sexism being cultural. It is in our very highest of ordinances and it breaks my heart. When I pray I feel Gods love-actually I feel my Heavenly PARENTS love. I have also been thinking a lot about my Heavenly Mother. I have always been told that we believe in her. The common answer to why we don’t talk about her has been, “she is too precious, HF doesn’t want people to use her name in vain like they do to His name.” That could be a plausible answer. (Although I can’t seem to imagine the Goddess of our world being so weak and fragile that she can’t handle that.) But what doesn’t sit well with me is that she is not in the temple. The temple is the place where she would be protected from that type of thing. It just doesn’t make sense to me.
I think that sums it up for now. I imagine my faith journey could take a lifetime.
Hang in there and keep doing what you are doing. It does take time. One thing I’ve tried is to pick books and reading material that is balanced. I read conference talks and I read material written by non LDS scholars. I go back and forth and try to be open from both sides. Just a suggestion.
I second herbs suggestion. Finding balanced material is really hard(just as hard as finding a political balanced documentary). It’s like anyone going back and reading the so called ” chivalrous” days is going to be in for a surprise. It is often shocking to read the “unromanticized” past. There really is no revelation o heavenly mother that I am aware of”just that she exist”. So they really can’t talk about it since we really know next to nothing of it(it would just be speculation). The concept of “religious authority” or “male religious authority” is something even as a male I never understood/understand since my brian shifts authority as a man made construct for control(it doesn’t see the idea of authority as “divine”). Never the less I except it despite not understanding the concept of it. It didn’t originate with us but with the Jewish religion which extended to the Catholics then to us. We actually are quite liberal in this regard compared to the Orthdox Jews who’s women aren’t allowed to read the Torah but must be taught it orally from thier husbands and males. Also that “Gentiles” were not suppose to get or read the Torah anyway, we were suppose to get “taught” it orally from the Jews. So the idea of religious authority really stems from them and to follow the “7 Noahide Laws”. Anyway since I have never received revelation on “authority” either way I put it on the shelf and do my obligations. Doesn’t mean as a guy I understand it(especially after researching the history). I do know that “our past” isn’t as controversial as I studied others(there are many more far more “controversial” as I pointed out one. I do know the world needs many personality types. Not just 1 or 2. I wouldn’t be ashamed of a “personality type” belonging in either sex. As a “INFJ” personality type I’m not exactly a “raging typical male” in fact I find myself constantly surrounded by guys I can’t relate to, I grew up having more female friends as a result. I struggle to relate to males within my own family and they struggle to relate to me but accept and support me. At work I definitely don’t relate to the “sports,sex, money, beer talk that is 80% of what I hear at whatever work I do. I don’t relate to any of it so I a pretty quite at work. My personality type leaves me feeling isolated from most males when I want to establish a connection to them. I have learned to accept it. In that way I can relate. We really are “wired differently”. http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=50512 ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=50512
Quote:Consider these recent findings. Researchers, using brain imaging technology that captures blood flow to “working” parts of the brain, analyzed how men and women process language. All subjects listened to a novel. When males listened, only the left hemisphere of their brains was activated. The brains of female subjects, however, showed activity on both the left and right hemispheres.
As a result of using different parts of our brain to analyze or think about the same things we come to different conclusions. The 2 halves of the brain think very differently and process differently. Right side(parallel processor) left side(serial processor).I[/b]t is inmportant to note that there really are biological differences among humans and sexes in thinking. People don’t seem to know now to react when confronted with those that are wired atypical, it confuses them.[/b] we have a responsibility to understandand except each other and that we actually are “wired” differently and except differences as equal. I pray for the day we can except all thinking and personality types in either sex. And except you can’t just ask someone to think “differently” or to the “status quo” to homonengize everyone into 1 thinking or personality type just isn’t possible. We should accept it, not reject it. After all this is how “god made us”. Embrace our thinking and personality differences in either sex and use them in the orchrastra. Don’t feel inclined to throw out those that are “wired” differently any more then those with different skin color.
I now view many of these policies like ‘the mother stays at home and raises children” as general guidelines. DH Oakes indicates all that GA’s and the church can teach are general principles, and that if we have exceptions, we need to work them out with the Lord. This was liberating for me, to learn that. I don’t believe that all women should stay at home and raise their children. I have a daughter who is well adjusted, organized, and has all the traits of a wonderful upbringing — and she spent most of her waking hours in a caring, well-organized Montessori school. She helps the whole family keep the house organized — a weakness my wife and myself bring to our family. There is much more that having professionals take care of my daughter has brought to her life.
After making this realization, though, you have to increase your “being honest with yourself” meter. With it comes responsiblity to really look at Church ideas, your own ideas, your own situation, the needs of your family and others affected by you, and make a balanced decision that considers all these sources of information. As well as your own inspiration.
My lens also has this at its core — the church will do what is good for the church, with what is good for the members sometimes secondary. I think this across-the-board emphasis on having children is partly to fuel population growth, and is the next best thing to the population growth that comes from plural marriage. It is very good for the church, as growing children in the church creates strong traditions and cultural pressure to be active.
We also have a long history of this idea of strong population growth sustaining the church — it’s in the Book of Mormon as something God will command to raise up seed, it was practiced in the early days of the church, and its remainder is the emphasis on having children and the mother staying at home.
Hi HSAB! As you explore the early history of the church, you will find that BY was very supportive of women and occupations besides homemakers. You and your husband will be able to work out what will be best for your family and it will be okay. As long as you two are united in your plans, it does not matter what others think about it. In this economy, I am not sure how anyone feels comfortable with a stay at home parent. In more poverty stricken countries, every member of the family works and brings in whatever income they need to survive. It really seems to be mainly the US where this idea is so prevalent still. Bringing your children up in the church can definitely bring much good to your family. I do not regret raising our family in this church in spite of difficulties that life in the church also brought to us.
And there is no prototype for being a woman, in or out of the church. As I looked at your listing of your traits, I know any number of women who have the same ones. And some of them have careers and some of them are stay at home parents. We are okay just as we come.
Keep plugging away. I like you are going to go to the temple once a month. I found it took time to get to a comfortable level. Praying or pondering in the celestial room is very comfortable to me now and a source of happiness.
Fwiw, I read the Proclamation to the World as stating explicitly that each couple has to adapt whatever works for them when it comes to raising and providing for themselves and children. I think that’s what the words themselves say, regardless of how individual members interpret it. Thanks for all the support! I think I may have placed too much emphasis on the part of the sexism that I’ve kind of come to terms with already and not enough on what I’m struggling with right now. As far as working or not working goes, I don’t really care what people think anymore and my husband and I are on the same page. I still get very frustrated with how much it is assumed that all women will be domestic, but that isn’t deeply threatening to my faith. It just pisses me off. What is deeply threatening, (saddening?) but I only touched lightly on because I don’t really know if it crosses a line, is what seems to me to be a disconnect from women and God in the temple. I just will never believe in that, and that is how I currently view the temple. Since that is the core of our religion, I’m worried about how I can come to terms with it…if I can.
Heber, didn’t you say that your wife is a feminist? How does she deal with that part of it? I have a feminist friend who told me that she felt like it was more sweet, like the man was protecting the woman. I was hoping I would feel that interpretation, but I haven’t.
HSAB, I hope you know that you’re not alone. I consider my wife to be a feminist even though we have never really discussed it.
She has a hard time understanding & accepting the temple ceremony too.
She is a graduate of BYU & was a teacher most of our married life.
She took about (5) years off when our sons were born. (They came close together.)
Then she taught at the same school they attended.
She grew up in a small town. Now, I’m trying to talk her into moving to a small town where our youngest son lives.
She is very reluctant because of the atitudes of small town life.
As far as the church goes, take what you can use & leave the rest.
More will be added & understood as time goes bye.
Develop a close relationship with others in your ward or branch that have the same opinions.
You’ll get through this & come out better.
I hope this makes sense. Welcome to the group. Keep coming back.
Mike from Milton.
I hope this doesn’t sound too hokey. As time has gone on in our marriage, we both feel as if we have merged more and more as becoming one? Whenever anything comes up, we both know each other well enough it’s like we both go through a thinking process involving the other’s thoughts as well. I am not able to explain this well. We have and do influence each other that much, even in our thoughts. We don’t think just alike, but we automatically think of each other’s thoughts on something too. Maybe other people don’t get to this point. We really haven’t ever discussed this with anyone else. My husband would never and has never pulled the I’m the man, so it’s this way move in our marriage. We will discuss things to death and come to a mutual agreement. This is not to say our marriage is perfect, we have had our moments, but our willingness to communicate a lot has paid off. So the temple wording doesn’t bother me. I think there is much to be revealed down the road. afterall wrote:I hope this doesn’t sound too hokey. As time has gone on in our marriage, we both feel as if we have merged more and more as becoming one? Whenever anything comes up, we both know each other well enough it’s like we both go through a thinking process involving the other’s thoughts as well. I am not able to explain this well. We have and do influence each other that much, even in our thoughts. We don’t think just alike, but we automatically think of each other’s thoughts on something too. Maybe other people don’t get to this point. We really haven’t ever discussed this with anyone else. My husband would never and has never pulled the I’m the man, so it’s this way move in our marriage. We will discuss things to death and come to a mutual agreement. This is not to say our marriage is perfect, we have had our moments, but our willingness to communicate a lot has paid off. So the temple wording doesn’t bother me. I think there is much to be revealed down the road.
Communicate, communicate, communicate. I see that so little. Yet it’s so important. I’m
very much inline with my fiancé thinking. Yet she is so old fashioned it is very odd by me. She wants to walk side by side in life and I made it clear that’s what I wanted. Yet she expects me to be a take charge kind of guy and my spirit is just not that way. I’m not a take charge kind of guy at least not as a everyday man. I do well in emergencys or when something is going way wrong, but for everyday, it’s not my personality at all. I feel like the reverse of your situation HSAB. I just don’t have the stereo typical “male” traits. I feel at odds within the male cultural of lds and ordinances. My spirit just doesn’t identify and I feel isolated because of it. In that way I can relate. I express this to very few people(my fiancé and best friends). I’ve learned to live with it but it never gets easy or comfortable forcing or surrounding my spirit to not be what it is. I’ve found outlets to be who I am naturally inside and my fiancé appears to love it(I hope it stays that way). In
The end I believe if we surround ourselves and choose our significant others that support us it makes it more peaceful and tolerable for the moments we are out of our comfort zone.
afterall wrote:I hope this doesn’t sound too hokey. As time has gone on in our marriage, we both feel as if we have merged more and more as becoming one? Whenever anything comes up, we both know each other well enough it’s like we both go through a thinking process involving the other’s thoughts as well. I am not able to explain this well. We have and do influence each other that much, even in our thoughts. We don’t think just alike, but we automatically think of each other’s thoughts on something too. Maybe other people don’t get to this point. We really haven’t ever discussed this with anyone else. My husband would never and has never pulled the I’m the man, so it’s this way move in our marriage. We will discuss things to death and come to a mutual agreement. This is not to say our marriage is perfect, we have had our moments, but our willingness to communicate a lot has paid off. So the temple wording doesn’t bother me. I think there is much to be revealed down the road.
I could not have said it better
:clap: :clap: :clap: That being said I can see how the temple wording can be troublesome and misinterpreted by men (and women). I truly believe that my DW and I are 2 halves of a whole and I am sure that she feels the same way.
On a side note: She has a university degree plus a professional designation, she works in a senior postition at her company and she loves it. We have taken turns being the stay at home parent over the years and while I am currently working, I am the primary care giver at the moment. It really is all about both you and your husband working together in whatever way works best for the two of you.
Thanks for your comments everyone. Forgotten charity, it’s good to know there are others who feel the same way! I have really enjoyed reading your posts. As women we are told to be mothers and nurture: Men are told to be fathers and provide for their family. Yet no one tells men which profession they should pick to provide for their family, each individual finds the best way to do it. There is no reason you can’t do that as a woman. There is no one way to be a good mother.
As for your temple experience. Different things are meaningful to different people. Sometimes I have really learned a lot going to the temple and it is a great experience, sometimes it simply isn’t. I would go once in a while as long as you have a recommend, just to see if something good comes of it, but if it doesn’t, don’t worry.
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