atonement and Repentance: your thoughts

[Anonymous]

I’ve been asked to speak in a couple weeks on this topic: The Atonement: Repentance. I would love to hear some thoughts on these topics from anyone out there that might trigger some thoughts for me as well. Are there any quotes related to the topic that you like (LDS or not)? How do you feel about atonement and repentance?

[Anonymous]

Rather than write a bunch, here are a few links to stuff I’ve written about the Atonement and repentence.

First, the Atonement:

“The Place of Grace in Repentance” (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2010/01/place-of-grace-in-repentance.html)

“The Thorns of Our Flesh” (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2009/03/thorns-of-our-flesh.html)

The title of this one is too long (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2009/03/one-of-best-comments-on-atonement-i.html)

“Communal At-One-Ment” (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2008/12/communal-at-one-ment.html)

“Cast Thy Burden Upon the Lord” (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2008/10/cast-thy-burden-at-his-feet.html)

Repentance:

“A Fresh View of Repentance” (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2008/01/rethinking-repentance.html)

“A Deeper Look at True Repentance” (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2009/02/deeper-look-at-true-repentence.html)

“More Thoughts on Repentance” (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2008/06/more-thoughts-on-repentance.html)

That enough?! 😯

[Anonymous]

My sacrament meeting on Sunday was on repentance and a few things were said that really irked me. I ended up walking out of sacrament meeting before it ended because I was annoyed by bad talks and they went over the scheduled time and I had had enough.

I would encourage you to stay positive about the topic and be personal. I am of the mindset that when we speak at church we should share our thoughts on the topic, not just regurgitate the thoughts of others. I’m sure you’ll do great.

[Anonymous]

I just spoke in Sacrament meeting on Sunday. I always try to give good application for real life. I used to feel very strongly about the atonement (when I was TBM). I tend to focus on the conceptual goodness it brings me now. For me, at this point, rather than articulate, or speculate on the atonement itself, I would discuss its practical application in our lives. For example:

1. what does repentance give me? Spiritual peace, freedom, etc.

2. what does the atonement mean for me when deciding how I should treat others?

3. what does the atonement mean for me when I judge others?

4. what does the atonement mean for me when someone offends me?

Whether repentance is real and something required for some glory in the afterlife, or whether it’s something we do to make ourselves feel better is irrelevant (for me) and hence I would avoid making definitive statements about it. I would rather focus on the consequences of the idea in my personal life. Oh, and whatever you do, please don’t use the creditor/debtor/mediator analogy. Seriously, do we really need to view our personal choices as a default on a loan with an accompanying repayment program? Surely it’s more than that!

[Anonymous]

My own very quick summary is that “the Atonement” is what gives repentance real meaning. To explain:

“To repent” means “to change” – and there would be no reason to strive to change if there was no difference eternally in the outcome. To me, the phrase “having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof” points directly to the heart of repentance and the Atonement – that the “power of godliness” is the ability to take us and make us into “more than us” – to allow the change for which we strive but never fully master to be actualized in the end – to give us the hope that our efforts to change will have an eternal impact.

So, to me, the “Atonement” covers the entire span of eternity (as far as it concerns us). It is the eternal stages of life that take us from what we were and are to what we may become. It is God’s governing grace that allows the process of eternal progression to occur.

WITHIN the Atonement, our part is repentance – a conscious effort to participate actively in the process of eternal growth.

That’s why “easy grace” (don’t worry about what you do; God will save you regardless) is so abhorrent to me. I don’t believe we “earn” or “deserve” a reward, but I do believe we have to participate in the effort to grow – that we have to strive to change and become – that we have to “repent”. I don’t believe we will change totally and completely in this life, but I believe we have to be involved in the effort to become more than we currently are – and to “endure to the end” in that process.

Of the links I provided in my first comment, the most foundational ones to me are “Cast Thy Burdens Upon the Lord” and “A Fresh View of Repentance”.

[Anonymous]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

How do you feel about atonement and repentance?

I have to admit, I’ve never been quite sure what repentance is. I know it’s kind of regret, and not wanting to do something again, but I’ve long felt that it’s not something that can be forced, particularly if the sin in question feels good at the time (and unfortunately many of them do). Many times I think I’ve repented, and find myself at it again.

Forgiveness is the same. I don’t feel it can be forced.

[Anonymous]

Thanks to all for the great start here, and the links, Ray – lots of reading to do!

For me, I always think of the word atonement’s meaning at-one-ment or becoming one with God. And repentance, rather than regret or remorse (which can trigger repentance I suppose) is turning toward God or changing to becoming more at one with God. I see it as a reconciliation with God, so for me repentance is more of a longing than it is remorse. We have drifted apart, we have allowed a rift to be created, and we “draw near unto Him” once again. To me, that’s what repentance means.

And atonement puts Jesus in the role of friend and mediator, our advocate (not a word I love – same roots as “lawyer” in Latin). But if we think of Jesus as a friend who helps reconcile us with God, that’s to me a more palatable way of looking at it. It’s not that appealing to me to think of Jesus as judge or advocate, but more as friend and mentor.

Starting to have some thoughts crystallize on this. Keep em coming! Great ideas.

[Anonymous]

Euhemerus wrote:

I tend to focus on the conceptual goodness it brings me now. For me, at this point, rather than articulate, or speculate on the atonement itself, I would discuss its practical application in our lives.

I would do the same. I would use caution with the word “sin”. In the church there are so many things seen as “sinful” that are really just a matter of perception. Too often we are encouraged to constantly repent because since we aren’t perfect we must always be making mistakes. I found this mindset destructive as a TBM. I would keep the talk positive saying things like how repentance can heal past hurts, mend strained relationship, encourage positive behaviour and thought etc… It isn’t so much about “correcting our sin” as it is about trying to find happiness with-in ourselves and towards others.

[Anonymous]

Hawk, I think you already see things pretty much like I do. Repentance being the process of change to become more “one” with God. Thus I do see it like we hear in church: “Repentance enables atonement” It’s all about personal growth, and seeking the divine.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

“To repent” means “to change” – and there would be no reason to strive to change if there was no difference eternally in the outcome.

I’m trying to understand what you mean here. Why would there be no reason to strive to change if there’s no difference in eternal outcome? Don’t the outcomes in this life mean just as much as the outcomes in eternity? Or are you not differentiating between outcomes in this life and outcomes after this life?

It seems to me that the best reason to change is exactly because it effects the outcomes in this life primarily. Can you explain?

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the clarifying questions, eu. I should have been a little more precise. I should have said that there would be no motivation to change **in the way that Jesus asked people to change** if there was no difference in the afterlife result.

Now, to break that down a little more:

1) Without a belief in an afterlife of some kind, this whole thing is academic. Of course, there is motivation to change if that change will affect one’s state of life in the here and now and one’s posterity – but those changes generally are not what is being asked of us as Christians. There generally is a disconnect, for example, between saving money and establishing a trust fund for the kids and giving away all and serving others. There often is a tension between getting ahead in many companies and industries and spending plenty of time with spouse and children. There absolutely is a conflict in many settings between being meek and humble and a peacemaker and climbing the corporate laddeer. I’m not saying the examples I’ve given are mutually exclusive, but they don’t mesh easily in many situations. So, for many, it is only a belief that what they become matters eternally that gives them the motivation to act diferently than they would without that belief.

2) I personally don’t differentiate between the outcomes in this life and the next life when it comes to the value of repentance – and I certainly don’t mean to imply that the next life is more important than this one. I think there is NO difference – that who one becomes in THIS life is who one is in the NEXT life. Therefore, I believe this life is “more important” than the next one – since the next one hinges on this one. I just believe that those who posit the existence of a next life won’t change if they don’t believe it will make a difference – hence, my disdain (and I use that word intentionally) for “easy grace”. It says, in essence, that change isn’t necessary – so it destroys repentance – so it halts personal growth and change – so it nullifies the Atonement – so it causes the creation to be wasted, if you will. That is what we call Satan’s plan.

[Anonymous]

Ray and Euhemerus have some good points in this post.

1.Who we are in this life is the same person we will be in the world to come. (Ray)

Personally, I don’t know, but I believe that death will be less of an event than a lot of people imagine it will be. I could be wrong of course, but I don’t imagine death being a great release of character flaws and weaknesses from which we rise out a perfect and flawless being. Instead, I imagine death will be a matter of laying down in a tired old body, or whatever condition our body is in when we die, and when we get up again, we don’t have a body anymore. There is a release, but only from the aches and pains of having a physical body. We still have all the quirks we had when we died, and all the desires, and flaws, and weaknesses. The only difference is we won’t have our physical body any longer.

2.We should focus more on what we can do in this life than what we can or can’t accomplish in the next. (Euhemerus)

I have stated in other posts that I don’t think anyone really “knows” what happens after we die or whether or not there is a God. But it is far better to live our lives as though there is a God and find that when we die there isn’t any afterlife, than to live our lives as though there is no God and find that after we’ve died there really is one. What we do in this life will either make this world a better or a worse place. And it is far better to give people a reason to miss you when you are dead than to wish you were dead already.

As for your talk, Hawkgirl, I wish you luck. I would offer some stories that I developed myself while I was on my mission to help illustrate the process of the Atonement and Repentance, but I’m not sure you wouldn’t find them to be as valueless as the mediator story, which I agree is also an abomination to the principle of repentance and atonement. I side with you on focusing more intently on the principle of “at-one-ment”.

Why do we need Atonement? In reading the BoM one morning on my mission 10 years ago, I came across 2Nephi 7:1 (at least I think that’s the reference. It is in the first verse of an early chapter of 2 Nephi for sure, right column, toward the top of the page, and I’m pretty sure it was on the right page too) It seemed like Christ was asking us “to whom have I sold you?…ye have sold yourselves [because of your sins]” I understood the Atonement as it really was that day because we all sell our souls to damnation every time we sin. I pondered on that scripture for a while and let my imagination conjure up this one and only story I will share with you:

Imagine a carnival has come to the edge of your town, and from your house you can hear the music, and the bells and whistles from the games, and the laughter and cheering from the patrons of the carnival. You become so excited, even though you don’t have very much money that without grabbing your purse, wallet, or any money, you just dart out the door and down the street. A man is standing at the entrance gate to the carnival. There is a large fence topped with razor wire surrounding it, but you think nothing of it since you are so excited to see what is inside this carnival. You talk to the gate keeper, and ask him if you can just go in and look around. He chuckles and says, “Of course you may come in! Everything in this carnival is yours for the taking, all the rides, the games, the prizes, even the food and drinks are all FREE!”

It sounds too good to be true, and you know there are other things you should be doing instead of playing in a carnival, and you know it is wrong to just assume he is telling the truth, but it’s all so enticing, that without much consideration, you give in to the temptation. So you run into the carnival, ride a few rides, play a few games, and stuff yourself with wonderful carnival junk food and the day passes with little consideration for the consequences of wasting a day at the carnival. You come to realize, in time, that it has gotten dark, and as soon as you realize how dark it is, the lights and the rides in the carnival all shut off. And it gets cold. You make your way back to the entrance to go home. And there stands the gate keeper who looks not nearly so jolly as you remember. He is very scary, and as you approach, he says, “Alright now, time to settle your bill. You’ve had a wonderful time, and now it is going to cost you.” In your defense, you remind him that he told you everything in this carnival was free, but he laughs at you and shoves a bill in your face. The entry fee alone is so expensive that you’ll never have enough money in a lifetime to pay it. And every ride and every snack is equally as expensive. You didn’t know anything in this carnival cost anything, but it does, and you’ll never be able to pay it ever again since you didn’t bring anything of value into the carnival anyway, not that it would have helped pay off such a great sum. Scared, you fall to your knees and beg for help from above. And immediately the grace of God frees you from the awful prison you have found yourself in. You go home, and every once in a while, you find yourself back in the same carnival perhaps a different ride or a different game, but the same carnival, and it always gets dark, but as often as we repent, the Lord forgives us.

Repentance means after you get our of the carnival, you avoid going back in because temptations always tell us that the rides are free and the entry to the carnival is free, but temptations are lies. Sin is fun, and attractive and desirable, but it isn’t right, and it certainly isn’t without consequences. When we do wrong, we need to change our ways, but the price of our sins still needs to be paid. Repentance doesn’t balance the scales of justice, punishment does. Payment for sin (punishment) can only come from one who hasn’t sold themselves to sin, and therefore is not bound by sin (Jesus Christ). If we commit sin, then we belong to sin, and we don’t have the ability to free ourselves. One who is sinless must pay the price for us to free us from our sins. What He asks of us is to have faith in Him enough to repent and be baptized and enter into all the other covenants and ordinances. By accepting these covenants, and partaking of His grace, we come to be at-one with God. Without that at-one-ment, we would be forever trying to repent to receive forgiveness without ever being able to find it since we have entered into sin and God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. So all sin, great and small, keeps us from God. And that At-one-ment brings us back again to God.

Since you may want to avoid references to sin in your talk, I also think it is important to remember that the Atonement also covers our infirmities and weaknesses and illnesses. Those things certainly get glossed over in most Atonement talks. But repentance, seems to be a direct reference to sin, since we don’t repent of weakness or being sick. So good luck with that one. You may reference repentance while focusing on the Atonement, so I’d be interested in seeing what approach you take to this talk.

[Anonymous]

Someone mentioned “at-one-ment” today as an explanation of atonement. I have heard that phrase before, but I’m fairly puzzled as to what they mean by that. It sounds kind of gnostic/Hindu! Can someone gloss this explanation for me please?

[Anonymous]

At heart, it means “to unify” or “to restore what is broken”. If you posit a “Fall”, becoming “at one” would mean having what was fallen returned to an “unfallen” state, albeit not the same state as before the Fall. So, in essence, it means becoming one with God – or united with God – or godlike / godly.

Fwiw, I believe that is one of the central concepts recorded in the Bible – but it certainly sounds more Buddhist than mainstream Christian. Personally, when it comes to the eternal big picture, I think Buddhism is much closer to the Biblical ideal than most of modern Christianity.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

At heart, it means “to unify” or “to restore what is broken”. If you posit a “Fall”, becoming “at one” would mean having what was fallen returned to an “unfallen” state, albeit not the same state as before the Fall. So, in essence, it means becoming one with God – or united with God – or godlike / godly.

Fwiw, I believe that is one of the central concepts recorded in the Bible – but it certainly sounds more Buddhist than mainstream Christian. Personally, when it comes to the eternal big picture, I think Buddhism is much closer to the Biblical ideal than most of modern Christianity.

Thanks, the second definition – “to restore what is broken” – makes some sense to me. I have heard the “at-one-ment” thing before, and never really got it.

I intend to bring up Buddhism and also meditation in a discussion in the near future. It’s not something I’d be keen to discuss at church, but I think some of it might go down well here. I certainly think that there are some things worthwhile in it, although how some of it fits with Christianity is another question. Personally I think it’s more a case of some common ancestry in the thought, rather than Buddhism influencing Christianity (as some have argued). I’ll bring it up on a separate thread soon.

[Author]

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