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Old-Timer wrote:
I should have said that there would be no motivation to change
**in the way that Jesus asked people to change**if there was no difference in the afterlife result. 1) Without a belief in an afterlife of some kind, this whole thing is academic. Of course, there is motivation to change if that change will affect one’s state of life in the here and now and one’s posterity – but those changes generally are not what is being asked of us as Christians.
Sorry, Ray, I’m trying to understand what you’re saying here, but it’s not clear to me still. I guess you are specifically referring to the atonement, right? That is, “following Christ” might boil down to repentance, and living a Christlike life? I have spent a lot of time pondering over this sort of issue. It seems to me that this has merit despite the possibility of an afterlife. For example, if one takes a purely evolutionary approach to life, one can see that “serving others” has individual benefits in the form of elevating society as a whole, as well as making me feel good. From an evolutionary vantage point, it is a tenable position to believe that religion was born as the mechanism for helping us become the ultra-social species we are today, thus helping us progress to where we are by cooperation. From this position it is easy to see people like Jesus, Muhammed, Joseph Smith, other prophets, as a link in the evolutionary chain to help remind people of this fact. Repentance could be seen as another tool for helping us cooperate better and become more social.I suppose this might be considered “academic,” but it certainly still serves a useful mechanism in this life. People who get ahead in companies typically aren’t happy by trampling over everyone else to get where they are. Happiness seems to stem, in part, from striving to live a life like Jesus’s, with the addition of close family, and supportive communities. I completely understand that there is a trade-off between striving to live a Christlike life, and seeing our own needs/dreams/desires fulfilled. However, I’m not convinced that one extreme or the other brings happiness. Either one, taken to the extreme, will result in unhappiness.
I am bringing this up because I am one who is very unconvinced of an afterlife. Honestly, I’m very uncertain, yet I still find value in trying to live as Christ showed. I still practice repentance the best I can, even asking God for forgiveness. I do think that you’re right though, for some people who are atheist and believe there’s no afterlife there is little incentive to pray to God and ask forgiveness. But the principle of repentance in this life, as it relates to others, still holds even for atheists.
My thinking is closely aligned with eu’s. I’ve found (for myself) that living “presently”, “staying present” is another variation of the thematic concept of loving God and loving one’s neighbor. In my mind, loving God is loving oneself first, embracing the “god” in all of us, that light which focuses our mind and heart on how to accomplish the second: loving those around us.
In the construct of “at-one-ment”, all of humanity shares this same light whether it is a collective conscious/unconscious or an innate, instinctive, evolutionary form of cooperation. True “at-one-ment” is recognizing the other as one recognizes and loves one’s own consciousness, striving to embrace the light inside through “goodness”. When actions offend that goodness, one recognizes the lesson, the experience, as a trigger for adjusting one’s actions and mind and heart back to the unity of humanity, thus contributing to the evolutionary “exaltation” of the whole.
My thought process goes like this: if there really were only one person in the whole world there would be no “sin”. All “sin” is action which offends the body of humanity; puts oneself above the whole. Thus, repentance is the process of learning through experience, again, realigning one’s actions, heart and mind back to the “one-ness” of humanity.
In this way, Christ’s teachings are mutually inclusive: they align with the ideals of most spiritual/religious thinking when applied in the most charitable ways.
I feel that my focus on “staying present” to recognize how my mind and heart are aligned with the “good” of humanity, is true happiness and joy, even in the face of trials and tribulations. My focus on the moment rather than on “eternity” has served me well in dealing with the emotional roller-coaster that is life, striving for emotional wholeness and health by overcoming emotional brokenness. In this way, I can truly and sincerely love myself unconditionally and extend the same charity to all of those around me.
I agree, swim. One of my strengths (and in a way one of my weaknesses) is that I don’t spend much time worrying about the past and the future. Eu, I guess I didn’t make it clear enough that I am talking only about those who posit a belief in an afterlife – and especially in a “Christian” afterlife. I’ve found that those who don’t believe in an atonement that makes us one with God often fall into an acceptance of “easy grace” – which robs them of repentance. They don’t believe what they do has any real impact on their future, so they don’t prioritize change as much as those who see repentance as a need.
I know I’m over-generalizing, but I’ve seen that tendency.
Old-Timer wrote:One of my strengths (and in a way one of my weaknesses) is that I don’t spend much time worrying about the past and the future.
I’m curious Ray, how do you see this as a weakness.
In my mind, we learn from our experiences so that in the present we are living in the best way we know how, based on those experiences. If something unforeseen happens in the future, we use that experience as a way to adjust our present based on that information. Thus, the future is simply a continuation of our learning and growing experiential life, while the present is keeping the heart and mind focused on the “joie de vivre”.
Swim, I think it’s a great strength in many ways, particularly when it comes to statements like “time is measured only unto man” and “with God, all things are present”. I wouldn’t change that characteristic about myself – except in situations where long-term planning is beneficial to the here and now. I am getting better at that, but there still is room for improvement – for “repentance”. 
The greatest aspect of living in the present is probably that I don’t spend time and energy worrying about what might happen but never does. Otoh, I do consider all the possible outcomes when there is something I need to consider – but, once that is done, I let go and deal only with what actually happens.
I get that from my mother, to some degree – and she gets it from her schizophrenia, ironically. She can’t worry about the future without damaging results, so my dad shields her from everything that might cause worry – so she can “live completely in the present”.
I’m just saying that living in the present but thinking appropriately about the future is a bit of a paradox – and those who don’t see a need to repent (to change) also, in their own way, are “living in the present” and not worrying about the future. It’s a fine line, and it’s one I’m working on understanding better.
hawkgrrrl wrote:But if we think of Jesus as a friend who helps reconcile us with God, that’s to me a more palatable way of looking at it. It’s not that appealing to me to think of Jesus as judge or advocate, but more as friend and mentor
I like this way of looking at it also, Hawkgrrrl.
We need something to keep us calibrated to moving in the right direction, which requires constant realignment. That is the value of repentance to me.
J. Golden Kimball’s quote: “I may not walk the straight and the narrow, but I sure as hell try to cross it as often as I can.”
Airplanes (per Covey books): Planes are “off course” 95% of the time. In order to get to their destination hundreds of miles away, they must make hundreds of small and frequent course corrections along the way. How tragic it would be if they made none, and then had to make gigantic course corrections only when they realized they did not arrive at their destination.
I think there is peace and confidence believing that being “pure in heart” is not without making mistakes, but constantly trying to keep aligned to “pure” truth as it becomes known to you along the way, which is an ongoing journey less about yesterday and what mistakes I made, and more about how we choose to move forward in whatever circumstance we are currently in.
Repentance is helpful for me in this regard.
Just some random thoughts. Perhaps you’ll share your talk with the group and post it online when you’re done??? It’ll be like have a little sacrament meeting here on line.
I was asked to teach a lesson on an intro to Christianity to a group of 5th and 6th grade Unitarian kids this Sunday. I think the idea of atonement is really at the heart of Christian theology. The hard part in explaining it to these kids is explaining why Christians believe people need an atonement or redemption. The concept of living in a fallen world was foreign to them. One asked what sin was. When I said sin is anything that separates us from God. This makes since to me and I think did to them. They did know the story of Adam and Eve. As I start examining the story, it does seem strange to me that Adam and Eve eating something God told them not to puts us into a world that an atonement is necessary to get back to God. I get the idea of learning and growing through repentance, but am I the only one that struggles with the idea of a fallen world or fallen man? Gail, there is a current thread where we are discussing the need for an atonement directly. The link is: http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1337 Thank you Ray. Old-Timer wrote:I agree, swim. One of my strengths (and in a way one of my weaknesses) is that I don’t spend much time worrying about the past and the future.
Eu, I guess I didn’t make it clear enough that I am talking only about those who posit a belief in an afterlife – and especially in a “Christian” afterlife. I’ve found that those who don’t believe in an atonement that makes us one with God often fall into an acceptance of “easy grace” – which robs them of repentance. They don’t believe what they do has any real impact on their future, so they don’t prioritize change as much as those who see repentance as a need.
I know I’m over-generalizing, but I’ve seen that tendency.
Ah, I see. I thought the focus was on belief in an afterlife as a necessary condition for use of an atonement concept. Yes, I agree with you as you’ve described it here.
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