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Heber13 wrote:
I honestly think your approach is more of what I see in the doctrines of the gospel…and all these rules are from people who want to be given the law. It reminds me of Book of Mormon stories when the people wanted a king, so there is order, even if they sacrifice freedoms for that order. It can be a dangerous thing…but it can bring organization (like the correlation efforts).Yes – agree with every part of your post today.
đŽ That is a good point, and certainly one can see the difference in the physique and personalities that Doug talked about a few months back. I am a die-hard idealist. Most people here are either idealists or rationalists. The fact is though, most people on this planet are Guardians. That includes the church – especially the church – and they see the world differently than I do. And somewhere deep down I believe the the LDS is doing what it thinks is best, and serves the majority of the members, who, probably would rather be safe and have a “king” and all the rules, rather than just live the doctrines of the gospel. I think that is what most people want – so religion is meeting that need for them,.I don’t want it. I don’t need it. And it is not working for me.
Some of you here believe the church has a big enough tent for all, including folks like me. I’m not sure about that, I don’t see it, locally at least, and I highly doubt my region is an isolated case. (in fact – I think often times our “idealism” plays out here too — that there is room and that the church is opening it’s tent and moving towards diversity and tolerance when the evidence and practice does not point that direction – sorry folks, but I don’t see it.)
Back to the point though. This morning I had a conversation with the HC. I made the comment that I enjoyed Sunday two weeks ago when it got canceled because of too much snow. I told him I just built up the fire in the woodstove, turned off the TV, sat around and read the Christmas story with the kids, made some popcorn and visited. Then I asked him why the church doesn’t do that – why doesn’t the church set aside the first Sunday of every months and let the members stay home and spend time with the kids and wife and just enjoy the sabbath. Of course, his response, which is dead on, “because you are probably one of the few people in the branch who would actually do it. Most members would just see it as a vacation from church.”
This has been a wonderful discussion, and cwald’s HC nailed the major issue facing the global leadership with regard to “the rules”: 1) Church was infringing too much on the modern lifestyles, so the leadership consolidated everything but youth weekday activities to 3 hours on Sunday – in order to allow families to spend more time on the Sabbath together. Many members didn’t do that, but now the complaints have changed to asking for even less time in church on Sunday – so they can spend even less time together and as a community.
2) Communities of ANY kind survive ONLY when the majority (and a fairly large majority) are focused on building them – putting in the “labor hours” and capital to make them stable. The explorers don’t want to be constrained by the rules of the community, but they almost always want the support of the community when they are injured, or can’t find game to kill for their own food, or just want to hear someone else’s voice – or dance and sing – or relieve some sexual tension – etc. every once in a while.
3) Community leadership, therefore, simply must create a society in which the settlers stay and receive what they need (stability and order and security) – understanding that the wanderers will stay only if they are tied emotionally (spiritually) to the community in some way. They know they can’t GIVE the explorers what they need inside the community; those explorers have to FIND it – inside or outside the community.
We generally are explorers; we need to find our joy and not ask others to give it to us. We just can’t begrudge the organization and leaders who do “give” so many what they want and need.
cwald wrote:“Most members would just see it as a vacation from church.”
I think that’s pretty funny. So this HC, if he had the power to do so, even though in his opinion most people would want to stay at home from church (occasionally, I suppose), would not allow them that privilege because … why? In order to make them want to go to church more? To teach them a lesson (literally, perhaps)? To punish them? I also find it interesting that someone in the HC, when offering his honest opinion, would suggest that going to church is a burden for “most members”. We do this a lot, half jokingly, in meetings of one kind or another. There’s probably a lot more truth to it than we like to admit.
Doug, fwiw, I know my kids pretty well – and I create work for them all the time to keep them from sitting around, doing nothing and letting the house fall apart around them. The issue addressed by cwald’s HC is a lot more complicated than most people realize – whether or not they agree with cwald’s suggestion.
Oh, and I thought church vacation was why Stake Conference was created.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_x9Eq7N0pQpc/TMkUpgNByYI/AAAAAAAAFqo/gb6Yw_WNoi4/s1600/postcard.jpg (Linked from: “Post Sacred” (
http://postsacred.blogspot.com/ ) – which all of you should check out if you want a laugh.)cwald wrote:Yes – agree with every part of your post today.
đŽ I better mark this day in my journal!! j/k
đ doug wrote:I think that’s pretty funny. So this HC, if he had the power to do so, even though in his opinion most people would want to stay at home from church (occasionally, I suppose), would not allow them that privilege because … why? In order to make them want to go to church more? To teach them a lesson (literally, perhaps)? To punish them?
I agree, doug. Why is this a big deal? If a family wants a vacation, is that so wrong? Why is that bad?
It seems some people just get programmed, you must be at church every Sunday, and the church leaders better make sure we teach that or else people will slip away! Those ideas get passed down over time to where it just becomes accepted and then, some things get focused on (church attendance) instead of the weightier matter…keeping the Sabbath Holy or worshiping God.
Quote:there are so many âshouldsâ and âshould notsâ that merely keeping track of them can be a challenge. Sometimes, well-meaning amplifications of divine principlesâmany coming from uninspired sourcesâcomplicate matters further, diluting the purity of divine truth with man-made addenda. One personâs good ideaâsomething that may work for him or herâtakes root and becomes an expectation. And gradually, eternal principles can get lost within the labyrinth of âgood ideas.â-Pres Uchtdorf
I think the explorer/community is a GREAT analogy. Concepts that I have thought about, but really could never put into words. I’m guessing that is why I have so much angst/pain about it all. I don’t fit in the community, and I don’t want to live there, but yeah, I want a place to go when I need to, and get “supplies” to help raise the kids, and I want to be able to go home during the holidays and be comfortable around my TBM family, and wish they could be comfortable around me. It’s also why I have a tough time just leaving, because, even though I don’t want to live in the community, I do want to visit, and in our small branch, I’m not sure if there are enough “committed” individuals to keep it alive. Anyway — if Urchdorf is lurking on this site, maybe he will poach your idea for his next conference talk?
Heber13 wrote:…What I am learning is that there is more than one way to perceive things, process things, and respond to things. And because of that complex variation, it is difficult to claim what is “right” and what is “wrong” – only what I come to believe…I agree with DA, and cannot argue with the examples provided, that they propagate twisted thinking for some people. But I would also suggest that
the same statements quoted, for other people, propagate healthy, uplifting, and loving thoughts that build spirituality…my brother can hear/experience the exact same thing and tell me I’m wrong, that it is not negative, but positive. GBH black/white quote is true. JFS teaching morality is God’s way to find happiness, even if the Ensign teaches families should be respected for telling their sons to come home dead rather than immoral.My point is that to avoid twisted thinking, I think I need to also avoid black/white thinking (those GBH statements are bad for everyone), should’s (the ensign should not be teaching members those damaging teachings), or other types of twisted thinking aimed at the church or others…and just be more comfortable recognizing things exist in the world outside my control, but I will control my thinking regardless.
I really wasn’t trying to be as negative or cynical about this list as I probably sound. Actually, I think it is a great list of suggestions because it makes perfect sense that there is no need to get so upset or stressed out about things that aren’t really as important as we think sometimes. Sure it’s not very realistic for me to expect the Church to change their tune and get overly frustrated if they don’t but the main point I wanted to make is simply that I don’t believe that applying the suggestions in this list will really work out in the Church’s favor in many cases. Basically, I think the Church takes the cake when it comes to making unnecessary should statements and then magnifying their importance as if our eternal salvation supposedly depends on believing and doing all these things at the same time. That’s why I think an unbiased application of these principles would actually lead us to disregard or ignore much of what we repeatedly hear from the Church in many cases.
To be honest, I don’t think there is any good excuse if my TBM brother, parents, etc. want to believe this idea that sexual sin is 2nd only to murder other than they don’t know any better. I don’t believe for a second that all opinions are equally valid; some ideas are easier to defend than others. Continuing to imply that a significant and increasing percentage of members are just below murderers on the wickedness scale seems like a bit much at this point.
Sure pre-marital sex may have been more serious before we had effective birth control but I don’t see how they could ever try to label it a “crime” next to murder. No way. Once again, it looks like they just don’t know what they are talking about. There’s a reason that armed robbery, aggravated assault and battery, and other felonies are against the law whereas sex between consenting adults is not. People don’t want to be a victim of real crimes but when Church leaders like Spencer W. Kimball try to exaggerate the seriousness of imaginary “crimes” it mostly just makes them look like fanatics more than it will ever really prevent all these sins they are so concerned about.
Quote:Once again, it looks like they just don’t know what they are talking about.
It’s another example of bad interpretation of scripture. The idea that sexual sins are next to murder in seriousness actually isn’t taught in the passage in Alma that is referenced all the time. It really isn’t, and I’ll parse it if anyone is interested.
I need to ponder more on this subject before I am able to apply these tendencies to myself. However, I am prepared to offer some observations. 1) I dated a girl in High School that had much bitterness against my Mom and the Church. I remember consciously avoiding talking about either to prevent negative comments. But to no avail, she would literally say, “If your Mom was here she would say {insert condescending judgmental statement].” I could scarcely believe that out of thin air she would conjure up my mother and imagine her to say hurtful things that would in turn feed the bitterness. Why?
2) I love what Bridget brings up about trying to act from a position of love. I need to work on that.
3) Finally, in speaking of communities – I have spoken to several persons in leadership positions in other churches that are quite envious at how much the individual LDS person regularly does for the local congregation. In visiting other churches (for various durations), I feel drawn to get involved (almost like having a calling). Additionally, I volunteer for the local Park & Rec. program and Children’s Pioneer Club. My LDS upbringing seems to have made me a better contributor to the community.
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