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https://wheatandtares.org/2017/05/30/improving-the-status-of-women-in-the-church/ I try to do these mile-marker posts every once in a while to mark progress for women, but it had been longer than I realized. There have been improvements, some bigger than others. The ones I personally think are the biggest:
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Lowering the age for women serving missions.This will have downstream impacts that will result in women being taken more seriously. –
Not firing women from CES teaching roles when they have children.I know it sounds crazy obvious, but when I moved to Singapore in 2011, the headline in the first Straits Times newspaper I read was that Singapore Air had just instituted a new rule that they would no longer fire flight attendants who became pregnant. They are still much more like the 1960s where flight attendants are domesticated eye candy. –
Televising the PH session of GC and calling the Women’s Conf one of the sessions of GC.These aren’t perfect, of course, but making the PH session available to all via television was a big move that got lost in the temple square Ordain Women marches. It was still a fairly important move at making something that was just a secretive thing for men into something I OFTEN hear women referencing. Clearly it’s being consumed equally by both sexes. Priesthood session: it’s not just anti-porn talks anymore. What changes do you believe have been most significant?
What changes do you most hope for?
I think the largest was lowering the mission age. That was a game changer. There’s also women praying during GC. I don’t know when that practice started. I lose track of time.
If women being ordained is too much for you how about doing away with PECs and moving to ward councils where the makeup of the council is close to 50/50 men/women. From what I hear we’re headed that direction.
hawkgrrrl wrote:
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Televising the PH session of GC and calling the Women’s Conf one of the sessions of GC.These aren’t perfect, of course, but making the PH session available to all via television was a big move that got lost in the temple square Ordain Women marches. It was still a fairly important move at making something that was just a secretive thing for men into something I OFTEN hear women referencing. Clearly it’s being consumed equally by both sexes. Priesthood session: it’s not just anti-porn talks anymore.
But before this wasn’t the Priesthood (and for that matter – the Women’s meeting) available just a few weeks later (both print and video)?I like it because I don’t have to drive 45 minutes to the stake center for Gen Con PH session. I could just watch it at home.
Quote:There’s also women praying during GC.
Yes, that was mentioned in the post, although since women already pray in local sac mtgs, I didn’t think this was as significant a step. That’s just my own opinion.
Quote:But before this wasn’t the Priesthood (and for that matter – the Women’s meeting) available just a few weeks later (both print and video)?
Yes, 5 days later, actually. . .BUT I stand by my statement for 2 reasons: 1) the number of women who are quoting it/listening to it/considering it for them is MUCH higher based on what I’m hearing at church, and 2) I could be off, but I think the topics are more general now than they used to be, possibly in acknowledgement that the meeting is now more mainstream.
I also think the age change is the most significant and still don’t know why they just didn’t make it 18 for both. I agree it will have a long range effect, including respect. It has already begun to affect marriage age – there are now far more YW (from my observation) who are “planning to serve a mission” instead of the mission being a back up plan if you don’t happen to be married by 21. My sons at BYU tell me there has been an attitude change there as well, where the men are looking for returned missionaries to marry – a turning of the tables of sorts. That said, I do enjoy sitting at home on my couch in my jammies to watch priesthood session.
hawkgrrrl wrote:
Quote:But before this wasn’t the Priesthood (and for that matter – the Women’s meeting) available just a few weeks later (both print and video)?
Yes, 5 days later, actually. . .BUT I stand by my statement for 2 reasons: 1) the number of women who are quoting it/listening to it/considering it for them is MUCH higher based on what I’m hearing at church, and 2) I could be off, but I think the topics are more general now than they used to be, possibly in acknowledgement that the meeting is now more mainstream.
I agree. Again, this is anecdotal, but my wife listens live now and probably pays more attention to priesthood session than before. Somehow it used to be some secret stuff we discussed, even though it was printed later. And I also agree the priesthood topics are more general than they used to be – I’ve noticed less of the “I’m going to address the Aaroinic Priesthood brethren….”
hawkgrrrl wrote:
Yes, that was mentioned in the post, although since women already pray in local sac mtgs, I didn’t think this was as significant a step. That’s just my own opinion.Women praying during SM is probably commonplace but I see some value in things like that happening on a more global stage. For instance, in our ward we have a woman give the closing talk at least 50% of the time, possibly more. I’ve heard experiences where apparently women giving closing remarks doesn’t happen in every ward.
So first baby step? A woman gives the closing talk during the General Women’s Session of conference.
I haven’t done any research… has a woman ever given a concluding talk during a session of GC?
As you’ve indicated, and as referenced in the blog, there are small, but visible improvements to the official posture of the Church. I think just as significant, is that the culture is making big strides. This is more subjective and subject to anecdotal evidence, but I think there is much more street-cred held by women than in times past, open acceptance of single/divorced women, acknowledgement that 1950’s-style-families are less and less the norm, and that women with jobs are mainstream. Young women are getting more educated and with fully useful degrees. In my limited experience, my perception is that RS Presidents at the local level are more powerful women than what I used to see as motherly-women-extraordinaire in the past, but as I say, that’s just my perception. The Church and its people are not perfect in this area, of course, but at least there is movement in the right direction, something that hasn’t always or even usually been true.
nibbler wrote:
hawkgrrrl wrote:
Yes, that was mentioned in the post, although since women already pray in local sac mtgs, I didn’t think this was as significant a step. That’s just my own opinion.Women praying during SM is probably commonplace but I see some value in things like that happening on a more global stage. For instance, in our ward we have a woman give the closing talk at least 50% of the time, possibly more. I’ve heard experiences where apparently women giving closing remarks doesn’t happen in every ward.
So first baby step? A woman gives the closing talk during the General Women’s Session of conference.
I haven’t done any research… has a woman ever given a concluding talk during a session of GC?
My observation in my own area is that by and large women almost never give the concluding talk in SM. This was different under our old bishop when it was more like your referenced about half the time. There has been a noticeable difference with the “new” bishop. It never happens in the other ward I visit often except when it’s a returning missionary talk – and even then not always (which also recently happened in my own ward).
I agree that women giving a concluding talk in a GC session would be another step in the right direction. I honestly don’t see why we need a member of the first presidency to conclude women’s session, but it seems to always be the case. While not all general sessions are concluded by a member of the FP, if it’s not one of them it’s usually an apostle. I don’t see why that’s necessary either, nor do I see the necessity of a member of the FP to speak in most sessions (usually all sessions) – they’re not that special. (On the other hand, if such was not the case we’d hear less from Uchtdorf.)
I think elevating the Ward council over PEC was a step in the right direction. I understand WC meets more frequently than PEC, which gives women leaders more of a voice than they had in the past. I don’t actually think lowering the mission age was a good idea. Nor for men. I think I saw Hawkgrrrl put this on facebook with the subtitle of, “You’ve come a short way baby”. Sums up how I feel about it. PAINFULLY slow progress – slow enough for me that I feel we are really losing ground (and the next generations). In my own backyard, progress has been made. My daughter, although TBM in many ways believes in having a career. Popping babies isn’t necessarily the top priority in her life. She also has a judgmentalism detector where she reports judgmentalism to me that she sees in others, although there are time I think it doesn’t work when she points it at her self. She also loves Utah right now, but said she couldn’t stand living there with all the judgmentalism about things like doing laundry on Sunday. So, we do have influence in changing the church through our family relationships if we are supportive but move our children and spouses a bit more technicolor in their thinking than their traditional black and white. SamBee wrote:
I don’t actually think lowering the mission age was a good idea. Nor for men.
I agree that 18 is simply too young for either sex. I suspect that change was partly because outside the US, missionary service often precluded higher education. Unlike in the US, you can’t just take off when you are 19 and be gone for 2 years. They are out of secondary school at age 17, and they are in a specific track (no undeclared majors while you putz around and waste 2 years on liberal arts classes in the UK). It was a huge disadvantage to have the age be 19, resulting in downstream career impacts for non-US church members on the British system. Maybe when graduating at 17 is the norm, an 18 year mission date isn’t as bad, but American kids are IMO just not ready. Everyone knows the best missionaries are always the ones who went later.
But I’m sure that the church also was worried about losing YM. I think that logic backfires a little bit, though, because many who are 18 don’t feel ready, and now we’ve attached a stigma to it.
I like that women are being included more in WC meetings. I think we should do away entirely with PEC (we don’t have it in my ward anymore anyway). Some changes that I would like to see that I think the Church could do now include:
1) Change the rhetoric about the expectation for women to be mothers and home makers. We don’t hear as much about this kind of talk, but there are sooo many GC addresses about this topic in the past and there hasn’t been anything new to change this. I do think they are encouraging education more, but it still seems to be more along the lines of “get a good education so you can take care of yourself until you get married” kind of thing, rather than encouraging women to be actual contributors or (God forbid) even the bread winner in the home.
2) Start calling women to callings that are traditionally male callings, but don’t necessarily have to be. These could include Sunday school presidency, ward clerk, executive secretary. Right now there are no callings that have women handling any of the finances within a ward. This sends the wrong message. I think there are callings that have traditionally been male callings but are not necessarily Priesthood callings. It would nice to see these callings offered to either gender.
3) This one might be rocking the boat too much, but the topic has already been re-introduced to the church via the essays. I would love it if the church would re-institute the policy held in the early church and into the 1900’s where women could lay on hands to give blessings of healing and comfort that were through faith in Christ rather than in the Priesthood. Sisters giving blessings of comfort to sisters when visiting teaching would be amazing. Also, I love the imagery of a husband and wife laying hands on a child together to give a blessing of love, comfort, or healing that comes from both of their united faith rather than just the husband doing it. To me this would be so powerful. But alas, I think this last one would ruffle too many feathers to truly happen.
I could go on, but these are my top three changes I’d like to see, shy of ordaining women.
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