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I sat through a priesthood lesson today about baptisms for the dead. The lesson started by stating that baptism was necessary for salvation and the only support for that doctrine was that the scriptures say so. It seems to me that it would still be fitting with my understanding of God that He could just as easily not require baptism for salvation. I was wondering if anyone else might have some insight into this. I guess I look at it as what baptism represents. It is symbolic of the need to be washed clean from the Atonement and outwardly show I am covenanting with my Savior to follow him and obey. Could God just forgive us and us not need a Savior at all? I don’t know, but that is not what we are taught as the plan of salvation…and likewise, God could bless us without us making covenants like baptism, but that doesn’t seem to be the way the plan of salvation is taught. Therefore, because I am reliant on a Savior, and the Savior taught man must be baptized to enter Heaven, then that is what it is. I like that mormonism provides a way for all those who innocently die without the opportunity to still be saved, that is a great evidence of the mercy of God. There are a couple of LDS scriptures that suggest (to me) that the dead do not require baptism. However, I do believe it to be symbolic for those participating in the rite. Quote:D&C 45:54 And then shall the heathen nations be redeemed, and they that knew no law shall have part in the first fresurrection; and it shall be tolerable for them.
Mosiah 15:24 And these are those who have part in the first resurrection; and these are they that have died before Christ came, in their ignorance, not having salvation declared unto them. And thus the Lord bringeth about the restoration of these; and they have a part in the first resurrection, or have eternal life, being redeemed by the Lord.
25 And little children also have eternal life.
It should be remembered that the “first resurrection” is for those who are going to gain eternal life which is the greatest gift of God. We are also taught that little children and those unaccountable are EXEMPT from the baptism requirement. These scriptures appear to say that those who died without a knowledge are also exempt.
literally necessary, as in no way around it? – Nope, imo. Beautifully symbolic? – I think so.
Fwiw, I believe ordinances for the dead are one of the best things about Mormonism. I absolutely LOVE the imagery of the hearts of the children being turned to their fathers – and of the core concept of doing for others what they can’t do for themselves. I wish more members would balance that effort on BOTH the living AND the dead, but I hear exhortations to do so constantly from the top, so I hope we are listening.
Quote:It seems to me that it would still be fitting with my understanding of God that He could just as easily not require baptism for salvation.
Well, that is an interesting position. Of course God can require/not require anything if he wills it. How does one decide whether something is a requirement or not, especially if “the only support for that doctrine was that the scriptures say so”?
I guess I’m not understanding why you aren’t convinced by scriptures–what other evidences are you looking for?
I was just wondering what other people thought. I believe that if I sought out a spiritual answer for the question I would end up with the answer that baptism is necessary but not really understand why. And maybe that’s as far as it’ll go. I was really just wanting to hear some other viewpoints on the matter. I guess for me, understanding why or trying to put reasons for God’s will has not proven productive in my growth, because I’m not sure I can comprehend God’s reasons. Why baptism? Why the Atonement? Why the earth and the plan of salvation? I don’t know.
But thinking of these can help lead to understanding better the symbolic meaning behind baptism or other things. That is worthwhile to try to understand what it means to me and what value it has in helping me live my life to find happiness.
Baptism is a way to show that I accept Christ as my savior, and know his sacrifice can wash my sins, and that as He was buried under the earth and resurrected, I will be also because of Christ. Furthermore, the authority that John had to baptize correctly is found in the LDS church, and so the Priesthood authority to do the baptism properly shows I am going to commit to try to live the commandments God has given (even if I don’t understand why they are all given). Being baptized by proper authority and by immersion is a way I can covenant with God to put me on a path of living a mormon lifestyle in search for happiness and blessings from God.
I think this is the basis of religion. Things outside or beyond this world (heaven, God, Atonement) are reduced to ordinances in this world so that we can commit ourselves to God with faith of finding happiness. To me, it is more about the commitment and what I promise to try to do then it is about why it is done this way or that way. If baptism was done by sprinkling the head, or if was done by eating a big mac, or done by traveling to Salt Lake City each year…I’d do it to show that I’m willing to enter the covenant with God. What I don’t think is helpful is you just get baptized when 8 and you never know why you did it. That doesn’t help. You may not understand at 8 why you did it, but as you get older you begin to understand the symbolism and the power of the covenant each week in sacrament meeting, and that become more meaningful the more I study about it.
I don’t think we’ll get everyone baptised in the temple…we just won’t have all records to do that…so I’m sure there is a way without baptism if God sees fit, but by us striving to baptize all the names…it is connecting us with our ancestors, and them to us, and that is special.
Those are my thoughts.
I guess I have always thought that baptism was necessary for those who are accountable and that somehow the millenium would take care of all the proxy baptisms for those who didn’t get a chance. I am not sure baptism, the ordinance itself, has any saving power whatsoever. I think rather that the ritual is a gift and training tool for us. I think it helps us to mark the event of rebirth. I think it helps us make covenants when there is a physical act that cements the deal. Of course it is the principles and spiritual sanctifications and nature changes that are important and it is most surely the spirit that causes that miracle. But since we are here on earth and can’t necessarily see or measure those things, I think the ritual is a helpful thing. Poppyseed…well said. I think you are right, it is a ritual and something to help us…nothing magic about the water or anything…but a beautiful ritual with meaning that is the first initial step each person makes when accepting the Savior in their lives. It’s necessary if you think it is necessary, IMHO. 
As Heber said, Quote:I guess for me, understanding why or trying to put reasons for God’s will has not proven productive in my growth, because I’m not sure I can comprehend God’s reasons. Why baptism? Why the Atonement? Why the earth and the plan of salvation?
I don’t know.
I agree whole-heartedly, and could add a few other things: Why did Abraham sacrifice Isaac? Why circumcision? Why kosher?
Why make my bed in the morning? Let me say that I will echo Ray on this one. Necessary – not likely, beautiful – absolutely. I think a Catholic baptism is beautiful too, but in a different way that doesn’t convey the same imagery and symbolism. And now, I simply must post this image that this thread reminded me of.
[attachment=0]postmodern.jpg[/attachment] Thank you for this post! I’ve been thinking about baptism for the dead lately. My in-laws/DH kind of want me to do it for Grandma in-law that recently passed away. Big problem-o is I have a hard time thinking it is necessary .. Which kind of makes me feel like she deserves someone with the “right” heart to do so-according to The Church anyway (since it is their “Ceremony”). So for the dead I lean towards baptism not being necessary-Beautiful ( a good learning, motivating/ responsibility for the person involved) but not necessary. I agree with doctrine of children not needing to be baptized. As for adults with some type of “knowlegde” or “feeling” of baptism being right .. I think they should probably go for it – But if they are in any way creeped out or don’t have a good understanding or heart for it .. They probably don’t need it either. It’s all about the individual-their needs, their thoughts..I think anyway. Oh I wanted to add .. these days I lean towards “judgement” being (as it should be) all about the individual. IOW if you think baptism for the dead, baptizing all of your children etc. is correct, then you better darn well do it! Example DH is TBM. He knows in his heart that he should not drink Tea (on the rocks), BUT he still does! So do I think it is “Wrong” ? Not at all. BUT he does .. And it kind of bothers me. It really is the thought that counts when it comes to acting out so called “Sins” .. So sorry to go off but I’m trying to tie it all together in saying it is only necessary if you think it is necessary for you, your family and any dead people you happen to know or not know! I hope I’m making some sense here. I guess that changed my answer quite a bit. It is necessary and it’s not!
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