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Those are good responses, skippy. Regarding the LGBT response, I’m almost there with you, maybe two yrs ago that’s where I was too, but I have recently wondered why the change to marriage definitions would be harmful or dangerous. If two other adults want to call themselves married, why does that impact me and my family? I don’t see that it does.
Regarding the standard answer, that the gospel is perfect, the church isn’t…it always comes down to what you define the gospel as. Some include the ordinances in the gospel. I cant see they are “perfect” and they are certainly not unchanging. The struggle is that even if the gospel is perfect, we see through a glass darkly, all of us, even the prophets and apostles, so I don’t know in this life if we ever really know what that perfect gospel is.
I think the church is there to help us try to see it more clearly, but it is a lifelong pursuit to try to understand it.
Therefore, that standad answer is not sufficient or comforting, in my opinion. It is just what people at church like to say to try to hang on to certainty amid an uncertain and imperfect church.
Heber13 wrote:Those are good responses, skippy.
Regarding the LGBT response, I’m almost there with you, maybe two yrs ago that’s where I was too, but I have recently wondered why the change to marriage definitions would be harmful or dangerous. If two other adults want to call themselves married, why does that impact me and my family? I don’t see that it does.
Regarding the standard answer, that the gospel is perfect, the church isn’t…it always comes down to what you define the gospel as. Some include the ordinances in the gospel. I cant see they are “perfect” and they are certainly not unchanging. The struggle is that even if the gospel is perfect, we see through a glass darkly, all of us, even the prophets and apostles, so I don’t know in this life if we ever really know what that perfect gospel is.
I think the church is there to help us try to see it more clearly, but it is a lifelong pursuit to try to understand it.
Therefore, that standad answer is not sufficient or comforting, in my opinion. It is just what people at church like to say to try to hang on to certainty amid an uncertain and imperfect church.
Thank you. I’m still working that part out for myself. Right now, I wish it would all be simply ‘done with’ as I’m tired of hearing about people’s sexuality. That’s also why I phrased my answer the way I did – it’s a sin for those who have been exposed to the laws of the Lord. Those who don’t know the law (or simply don’t care), let them live the way they want. Missionary work will still go forward and can then be the time for others to determine how they want to live.
As far as ordinances, they seem to change on a regular basis. I know that the endowment back in Joseph Smith’s time would take a full day. Now it’s just about an hour. Obviously it has been changed and continues to be updated.
In my mind, the gospel is a feeling. Some (many) make it out to be a “checklist of obedience”. The idea is ‘if you’re living the gospel’, you’re doing the following on a regular basis: personal prayer, couple prayer, family prayers, prayers over meals, personal scripture study, couple scripture study, family scripture study, family home evening, cleaning the church building, doing your home teaching, having ‘ppi’s’ with your kids every Sunday, visiting the sick, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc., etc., etc.
This “obedience checklist” is one reason why those NOT in our faith look at us and say that we’re trying to ‘save ourselves’ through our works. No one can do it all, do it consistently and continue to have the gospel in their lives. Christ said that his yoke is easy and his burden is light. But if you try to live by the “checklist”, you’re adding to your burden – particularly if you feel compelled in any way to do these things.
cwald wrote:Women can’t hold most callings or participate in most priesthood functions and ordinations because….because…they don’t have a penis?
Yeah, I get it now. Sorry women. Sorry jwald. I understand the pain that patriarchy is causing some of the members.
I don’t see that could help someone stayLDS.I’m sure it is more than having a penis. Generally, the minds of men work differently from women. Moreover, there are male and female spirits. “Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.”
Men and women have different roles. Men have held the priesthood since Adam. There may some useful info here:
http://www.lds.org/relief-society/daughters-in-my-kingdom?lang=eng Shawn wrote:
I don’t see that could help someone stayLDS.I’m sure it is more than having a penis. Generally, the minds of men work differently from women. Moreover, there are male and female spirits. “Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.”
Men and women have different roles. Men have held the priesthood since Adam. There may some useful info here:
http://www.lds.org/relief-society/daughters-in-my-kingdom?lang=eng Sure, I understand that you believe all that. I did too for a long time
I do not believe it anymore.
My post was intended to acknowledge the pain that patriarchy has and continues to cause some women. Their pain is real, even if us dudes don’t really grasp it – and we really can’t understand it like the women, because it doesn’t effect us like it effects them.
And I acknowledge that it certainly doesn’t help those women if we try to apologetic it away with what we perceive as rational basis…because many of them are just not going to see it that way. Sure, they may accept the explanation given by the brethren and keep quiet about it…but for many…it just sits on the shelf, one more item, gathering more and more weight every day.
Seeker wrote “However, doubts have surfaced in my mind about… women’s roles in the Church…” That’s it! We don’t even know the details, and its as if you are saying “Grasp the doubt, feed it, and become bitter!” It may be that the orthodox answer might work here. Shawn wrote:Seeker wrote “However, doubts have surfaced in my mind about… women’s roles in the Church…” That’s it! We don’t even know the details, and its as if you are saying “Grasp the doubt, feed it, and become bitter!” It may be that the orthodox answer might work here.
Okay.
Good point.
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You also might want to consider that what I wrote was something I needed to hear to help ME stay. Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
cwald, you humbled me with your reply. Thank you. I want you to stayLDS. I am quite new here. Somehow people need to vent frustrations, but people also need answers and just a listening ear without digging up more concerns unnecessarily. I don’t know how to strike a good balance.
Shawn wrote:cwald, you humbled me with your reply. Thank you. I want you to stayLDS.
I am quite new here. Somehow people need to vent frustrations, but people also need answers and just a listening ear without digging up more concerns unnecessarily. I don’t know how to strike a good balance.
that’s the key, shawn: balance. knowing cwald as well as i do, his point of view was well earned… but he is more believing and less bitter than what appears. I’m learning that you, too, are very thoughtful, and not as iron-rod-like as you sometimes proclaim to be.there is a wonderful teaching moment in the movie Indiana Jones Last Crusade. Henry Jones (Sean Connery) tells Indiana that sometimes one just needs to pause and let the situation play itself out.
know this: we here don’t want to be disaffected and bitter. we want to stay. we want to make the best of being in. we want to find the joy again. we don’t find joy in he dogma and kool-aid. we find it in the considered dialogue on spiritual things we share. the core principles are transcendent.
Its all good. I like what you have to say Shawn. And sometimes it just needs to be said. I might disagree, but that doesn’t mean you and I cannot have the conversation.
Hang in there friend….I honest to god hope you can find a way to stay…and it sounds like you can.
I envy you.
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Quote:I might disagree, but that doesn’t mean you and I cannot have the conversation.
Shawn, fwiw, cwald has written that same comment to me more than once over the years.
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