Being authentic with your children

[Anonymous]

Sometimes the Church will influence more than parents; sometimes it won’t. Cadence can say from experience it doesn’t get easier; I can say from experience it does get easier. Lots of people agree with Cadence; lots of people agree with me. Absolutes generally aren’t accurate.

Having said that, I agree that one of the primary factors is how open parents are to talking with their kids about anything and everything (and actually listening to them and valuing what they say), regardless of the “religious orientation” of the parents and kids. I’ve seen it done well by conservative and liberal members, orthodox and heterodox; I’ve seen it not done well by the exact same categories of people. It’s not the specific viewpoint that is paramount; it’s the relationship.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

How about the teachings for starters… that without the church you…You lose the spirit, float aimlessly through the world as an immoral, heathen drunkard on drugs and will be miserable for this life and the next.

There is only one way to be happy in the LDS culture…it’s a one size fits all approach.

I get what you’re saying, but I think maybe you’re misunderstanding my concern. I don’t worry at all about how miserable the church thinks I might be. My original worry was that my kids would feel betrayed or deceived when they find out their dad is a nonbeliever, or nontraditional believer. I lean towards being totally honest with them for that reason. It’s why I don’t take the sacrament, don’t pay tithing, and was not planning to perform my son’s baptism (I may change my mind on that).

cwald wrote:

PS…as far your comments to the Spock, as a guy who got married, while my dad sat out side of the temple…I can tell you that the LDS institution often/and wants to/ have more influence over your kids than you, especially if you are a heretic or NOM.

That is a fact one can observe everyday at the LDS temples.

I agree that the church wants to have more influence over kids who have heretic parents. I also understand your point of view. I sat outside the temple while my little sister got married and while my wife received her endowments. It didn’t bother me. It made me happy that they were doing something that made them happy. There’s a chance I would feel differently about it if it were my own children. But I don’t believe that just because the church WANTS to have more influence over my kids than me, that it will necessarily succeed.

Being married to a traditional, faithful member of the church complicates my decisions. She’s not going to budge (much), and I love her and don’t want to tear her down or stomp on her hopes and dreams (any more than necessary to keep my personal integrity—I am always honest with her). So my desire to keep a happy marriage means I’m stuck navigating the middle path whether I want to or not. Honestly, if it were up to me alone, I probably wouldn’t even be part of the church right now—but not through bitterness or a conviction that the church is awful. My experience with the church hasn’t been negative, except in a few minor ways. The fact that I think most church members are good, mostly good, or at least trying to be good, makes it easier for me to support my wife. My question is how far to go towards teaching my kids traditional faith while staying true to myself and nurturing a good relationship with them.

Cwald, it sounds like you’ve managed to raise some good, solid kids. How did you do it? How long were you an unbeliever before your kids found out, and how did you handle that (before and after)?

[Anonymous]

Hi, Daeruin – I think this issue is the hardest one for people here. Many/most manage to find an equilibrium with a spouse, but kids are a different story. Fortunately, there isn’t anyone you love more in this world than your child, so it is easy to get the first principle first: do no harm. And that will be different for each kid. I assume your children are young-ish? At least you don’t have the baggage of having taught them for years things you don’t believe now. Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Daeruin wrote:

Cwald, it sounds like you’ve managed to raise some good, solid kids. How did you do it? How long were you an unbeliever before your kids found out, and how did you handle that (before and after)?

jwald and I had every intention of raising our kids in the church, even as NOMish type parents. I was devout, served as EQP for years, and assumed my kids would have gone on missions and got married in the temple. At that time our kids new nothing of our doubts. I had serious doubts for a couple of years before I got ran out as an “apostate.” When shit hit the fan, I/we decided we needed to be upfront with kids, and let them know everything. I didn’t want them thinking Dad was getting disciplined for “sin” reason, chastity stuff…which is what many LDS believe happens when one goes through a faith crisis and/or gets confronted with church court.

I just simply don’t believe it…don’t believe in the truth claims and the dogma. It just doesn’t work for me. For me, believing the entire Mormon church structure and culture and dogma is like putting square pegs into round holes. It simply makes no sense to me.

So I was just brutally honest with them. They were very scared, at first…some tears even. Their fear and sadness quickly turned into anger at my family, and the church institution. The anger has now turned into empathy for religious members who participate for family reasons and who need and want religion in their lives…, and into cynicism and skepticism about religion and organizational hierarchy…which is a healthy and wise way to look at the world, IMO. (PS – our household is big fans of Skeptiod and Skeptically Speaking. )

Since then…well, I think I, and my kids are very spiritual people…and very anti religion. I’m a pantheist, and have taught my kids the beauty to be found in this kind of pathway.

We explore and attempt to appreciate many religious faiths and spiritual paths…we attend Mass…always try to find and visit Cathedrals when we travel. We recognize the jewish passover and hold Seder in our home. We do FHE and read and study from the Buddhist texts, especially the Dalia Lama writings…and sometimes even have homemade beer tastings while we do it. We make a special point at school to friend and spend time with the wiccan and goth kids. Our kids are good friends with the Jehovah Witnesses kids at school. They participate in Bible School and the local youth group. We talk openingly about SSM, teen pregnancy, sex, drugs, alcohol etc. We discuss the abuse and our frustrations with the church institution, and the danger of cults and organizations that have cult-like tendencies, and we openly drink in front of them and talk about why we don’t wear garments or have desire to return to the temple. Our kids have freedom to question and express their doubts and anger and skepticism about the church and religion in general. As a family, we listen to TED talks and Mormon Stories and Mormon Expression and Infant of Throne podcasts I teach my kids to proudly wear the label of “Mormon” and live true gospel principles and forget about all the other stuff and the dogma, and be vocal about it, and that reformation is my goal..and if the church doesn’t like,they can kick me out.

So there you have it.

You may ask why I participate on this site. Answer. All my family is mormon. All of jwald’s family is mormon. I and can/will never be able to ever truly escape the culture, and I participate here to learn how to talk civilly and to better understand the mormon people so as not to destroy the tenuous family relationships I have left.

[Anonymous]

Part of me wishes the local leadership had an open mind and could just listen to the impact their decisions have had on me personally over the last few years. I believe, from my life’s experiences, that they really don’t care about us as individuals. They care about policy, about the culture, about the chest-beating that comes from being a good Mormon, but they don’t really care about the people. The fact that I can express burn-out and the need for a release, and they don’t care, but then, when it appears I am attending a Ward in which I don’t live, the Stake President comes to my home — shows how much they care more about policy than they do what individuals truly need.

I’m getting to the point I care so little about leadership or service in the church any longer that I would like to go into our Stake President and let him know what led to my own lack of TR-holding.

It is their behavior as leaders that made me question whether all the habits of our religion (and they are expensive, too) are worth it. And I have concluded they are not.

I support my kids at the level they want to be supported. My daughter is TBM and I will help her be as TBM as she wants. My son doesn’t have a spiritual bone in his body, and that’s OK. I just hope he grows up honest and kind and good. And if he wants to be TBM, fine — just don’t push it on me personally….

[Anonymous]

Yup, the attitudes of local leaders can make all the difference.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

Yup, the attitudes of local leaders can’t make all the difference.

What does this mean?

[Anonymous]

Sorry, important typo. I fixed it to say that the attitudes of local leaders CAN make all the difference.

Thanks for pointing that out. I completely missed it. :thumbdown:

[Anonymous]

Ok.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

So I was just brutally honest with them. They were very scared, at first…some tears even. Their fear and sadness quickly turned into anger at my family, and the church institution. The anger has now turned into empathy for religious members who participate for family reasons and who need and want religion in their lives…, and into cynicism and skepticism about religion and organizational hierarchy…which is a healthy and wise way to look at the world, IMO. (PS – our household is big fans of Skeptiod and Skeptically Speaking. )

I only quoted a small part of your post because it was kind of long. I admit I was wondering what you were doing on this site, and when you mentioned that maybe you weren’t the best person to be giving me advice I started to agree. But I’m glad you stuck around and shared your story with me. It’s helpful to see and hear different approaches. I’m a skeptic myself, so I’m glad you mentioned Skeptoid and Skeptically Speaking. I’ll put them on the long list of podcasts I want to listen to when I have time. I also like your diverse approach to spirituality.

Ann wrote:

Hi, Daeruin – I think this issue is the hardest one for people here. Many/most manage to find an equilibrium with a spouse, but kids are a different story. Fortunately, there isn’t anyone you love more in this world than your child, so it is easy to get the first principle first: do no harm. And that will be different for each kid. I assume your children are young-ish? At least you don’t have the baggage of having taught them for years things you don’t believe now. Good luck.

Yes, my kids are young-ish. The oldest just turned 8 and will be baptized soon. I have four more kids aged 6, 5, 2, and 9 months. We have told the oldest about my different beliefs, in a general sort of way, but I don’t think it really sunk in. He spent a few days trying to convince me. He’d say things like “Look dad, it even says in the Book of Mormon that Jesus is real. NOW do you believe???” After a week or so I think he kind of forgot about it. I’m still going to church and doing family scriptures and prayer. I don’t think it’s really important to him yet. We’ll try again when he’s a little older.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

We’ll try again when he’s a little older.

My advice:

Don’t try. Just let it happen naturally, when he has questions and when there are things said at church with which you don’t agree. (not big picture things, initially, but more detail / specific statement things – things that are age appropriate)

If you try to force things on people who simply see things differently than you do, it can get messy quickly (as all of us can attest when others try to do that to us) – and that might include your kids as they get older.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

We’ll try again when he’s a little older.

Old-Timer wrote:

My advice:

Don’t try. Just let it happen naturally, when he has questions and when there are things said at church with which you don’t agree. (not big picture things, initially, but more detail / specific statement things – things that are age appropriate)

If you try to force things on people who simply see things differently than you do, it can get messy quickly (as all of us can attest when others try to do that to us) – and that might include your kids as they get older.

Thanks for that advice, it’s probably more realistic anyway. Unless I start participating in certain things again, questions are bound to come up without me forcing things.

[Author]

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