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I have been a bit dismayed lately by the comments in my ward’s Gospel Doctrine class about how you should speak “the truth” to people even if it offends them and be BOLD. IMO people who say things like that aren’t really talking about “the truth” at all, but about their own subjective opinions about other people. It sounds a lot like being judgmental and arrogant toward others openly and then patting yourself on the back for being righteous and truthful. Where is the love in that? They would say it’s not loving to fail to correct someone who is wrong, and yet, I sit there and hold my tongue for just that reason (also because this teacher doesn’t want discussion, just to lecture–he seldom calls on anyone whether hands are raised or not–too busy with his own schtick). I don’t think this is a trait unique to Mormons. The Church Lady certainly had it down pat. I was watching Inside Out last night with my daughter, and we laughed when Bing Bong spills the boxes labelled “Facts” and “Opinions” and he just throws them all back in the box labelled “Facts” saying nobody will know the difference anyway. Do you encounter this kind of attitude much? I will speak up (when and if there is a chance), but I’m feeling very uninvested and defeated the more the ward seems to rally around this notion. Are they the normal ones and I’m the weird one for thinking that they aren’t getting it?
I hear similar things in my ward quite often. The good news is that I believe it’s just like our approach to doing missionary work. We talk big in the second overflow but we lose our nerve once we’re out in public.
As I am working how to not totally separate from the church, but let it be clear I am not a TBM, I am trying to think long and hard (hence “Looking Hard”) at what attitude I am going to have towards TBM’s once I am “out” a bit. I do NOT want to be known as the angry (near) ex-mo that still attends church just to cause a ruckus. I am trying to be emotionally prepared to (as much as possible) show as much respect towards TBM’s. I do think there will be times I will point out when I feel hurt/damage is being done, but I want to say and show respect for them.
I say that and here I am. I skipped GD the last 6 weeks and HPG 3 of the last 6 weeks – mainly that I am bothered by what is said (and sometimes not said) and I worry I am going to let out an outburst I would regret. I wonder if it is going to be all that much different after I come out as not very believing.
I don’t see it very much in my Ward. They are generally humble people. But I have seen it at different times in my life. Once, I wanted to buy a car on Sunday because mine had died and was not worth fixing. We had a Mormon friend over for the evening and he had a car — would he mind taking me to a dealer to get one?
He was very abrasive in telling me “No” — a GA the previous weekend had indicated there is never a good reason to buy a car on a Sunday. I thought a 1.5 hour commute on a bus was a good reason (one way) to get to your paying job was great reason. He “bore down in pure testimony” against me on that one. I’ve had other people be bold in other non-church contexts about non-church things, and the only effect it has is to alienate me from their cause.
Rarely do you need to be blunt, or abrasive or forceful like that. As someone once said, you should always be a little nicer than you think you should be…
I said in another thread that I would have a hard time being Nephi’s sibling. Was Nephi bold or arrogant? Probably some of both, although I personally lean toward more arrogant. I don’t really encounter this in my own ward. We get some occasional “chosen” stuff, but when it comes down to being bold in public we’re all a bunch of chickens – and I’m good with the company.
I think members generally are okay with the concept and principle of boldness, but I think most are good, sincere, nice people who will let someone else be the bold offender – and who won’t agree with most actual instances of regular members being boldly offensive. This same teacher loves to compare himself to Nephi and his brother (who grew up in the ward) to Laman & Lemuel; his brother’s the prodigal and he’s the faithful overlooked brother. That just seems incredibly arrogant, not to mention rude and wishful thinking on his part. I don’t think it’s funny, even though people laugh. I know liberals are said to have no sense of humor, but self-aggrandizing comments that are designed to belittle someone who isn’t there to defend himself just don’t strike me as funny. I don’t think I’m generally lacking a sense of humor. And from what I can see, his brother’s biggest “sin” is having different politics from him. But this last Sunday it wasn’t him making the comment. He was just heartily agreeing with the commenter that he didn’t understand why people weren’t grateful and accepting when you bluntly told them the truth.
hawkgrrrl wrote:This same teacher loves to compare himself to Nephi and his brother (who grew up in the ward) to Laman & Lemuel; his brother’s the prodigal and he’s the faithful overlooked brother. That just seems incredibly arrogant, not to mention rude and wishful thinking on his part. I don’t think it’s funny, even though people laugh. I know liberals are said to have no sense of humor, but self-aggrandizing comments that are designed to belittle someone who isn’t there to defend himself just don’t strike me as funny. I don’t think I’m generally lacking a sense of humor. And from what I can see, his brother’s biggest “sin” is having different politics from him.
But this last Sunday it wasn’t him making the comment. He was just heartily agreeing with the commenter that he didn’t understand why people weren’t grateful and accepting when you bluntly told them the truth.
An interpretation of the parable of the two sons that I favor has the son who stayed as the Pharisees. Going along with the thread on entitlement, the Pharisees did think they were entitled to the Lord’s mercy because of their strict obedience, when they are also those who Jesus said draw near to Him with their lips but their hearts are far from Him. I am, of course, the prodigal son but I don’t think the other son is really any better (and both apparently received mercy).
Our ward’s biggest issue isn’t the teachers. The ward has a serious issue with a particular past bishop — now in the Stake presidency. He shows up occasionally in GD and brings his very harsh opinions with him. If there is any sort of discussion, he repeats one of about twenty scriptures/GA quotes that he has memorized and uses those to shut down the conversation. There are people who refuse to consider housing in our ward because that particular man lives in the ward. Yeah .. That bad.
He considers himself very loving and doing God’s Work .. He is isn’t a bad person. He is just very judgmental.
It’s like having the SNL Church Lady attend GD.
I find it with some people. And it has seemed lately there is talk about our society is going down the pooper, so people seem to react to wanting to be bold to stand for what is right. I would say most people in my ward are more careful in class and are not so bold.
But those who are definitely come off as arrogant. Sometimes that is inspiring and affirmational to people listening to the message they came to church to hear, but not realizing how they sound to others outside. It’s kind of close minded.
I remember one guy in my last ward that would talk about how the most offensive bumper sticker he saw was “TOLERANCE” with all the different religious symbols. His point was that the devil wants us to be confused with thinking tolerance is a nice thing but actually just means we don’t stand for anything at all, we just accept everything…and therefore…christ is just as good as any other religious idea. But the way he said it was so arrogant about how evil the other religions were, because they are evil dressed up with false nice things. He was trying to be bold to stand for the church. But he offended me how much he painted love and respect of others in society with such distrust and disdain. It really bothered me.
But he was just one voice. I think he was bucking for bishop…but was never really called to leadership callings. Because I think people could see his lack of a filter.
I think being bold is arrogant. There are some situations it can be good to advance good ideas, and it is needed. But…not when it is “us” vs “them” mentality…which it seems to be most of the time.
I’m glad I don’t have that every week in my ward. It is nails on a chalkboard to my ears.
We don’t have that problem in GD since I’m the teacher. In fact, two Sundays ago I included Thumper’s mother’s quote in the discussion. 🙂 GBSmith wrote:We don’t have that problem in GD since I’m the teacher. In fact, two Sundays ago I included Thumper’s mother’s quote in the discussion.
🙂
That’s pretty bold!
amateurparent wrote:It’s like having the SNL Church Lady attend GD.
[img]https://mikemcclaughry.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/church-lady.jpg [/img] Mormon HereticQuote:Alvin’s funeral was held at the Presbyterian church. According to an 1893 account by his brother William, “Rev. Stockton had preached my brother’s funeral sermon and intimated very strongly that he had gone to hell, for Alvin was not a church member”. William cites this as a reason that Joseph Sr. would not join the Presbyterians.
How is that for bold???
Who would do that at the funeral?
Heber13 wrote:Mormon HereticQuote:Alvin’s funeral was held at the Presbyterian church. According to an 1893 account by his brother William, “Rev. Stockton had preached my brother’s funeral sermon and intimated very strongly that he had gone to hell, for Alvin was not a church member”. William cites this as a reason that Joseph Sr. would not join the Presbyterians.
How is that for bold???
Who would do that at the funeral?
It might be a little more common than you think. I’ve actually heard it before. It is Catholic doctrine that anyone not baptized is going to hell, hence infant baptism. The Catholics are a bit more discreet about it these days, but if you attend a funeral for a baptized and confirmed member in good standing and one in not-so-good standing you can see the subtle difference in wording. (Note that where I heard the person was not going to heaven because he wasn’t a member was not at a Catholic church, but I have been to quite a few Catholic funerals.)
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