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I was waiting in line with my BIL thursday’s night to buy stuff on Black Friday and we were talking about the church and before I knew it I told him many of the feelings I have had the last few years. He is a HP and in fact was the missionary that taught and baptized my Mom and sister 6 months after I was baptized. I was surprised that he has many of the same feelings and doubts that I have. He and my sister attend church some, mostly for their callings and are not current TR holders and don’t plan on getting one at the present time. Just the Sunday before I was talking with another guy on the HC with me and he too shared his feelings and he has many of the same doubts and concerns that I have and that many of us have. They haven’t had the major crisis with some of the anger and depression, etc but still many of the doubts. I have opened up to a few trusted friends and one seemed shocked (very TBM) but the other(former Bishop) agreed with most of my concerns. All of us are active but I’m very surprised that there are more people out there than I thought. For the longest time I felt so alone. I’m wondering if more people who do go to church are in the same boat as many of us but they just don’t talk about it. It give me hope but at the same time mades me sad that the church that I love so much seems to be unravelling before my eyes. It was so much more simple before the “truth” ruined everything. So, what do you guys think? Is the “truth” going to continue to get out there and will we see the church change durning the next generation or will it adapt to the new “truth” and become stronger or just fade away? Are there any Prophets out there that can tell me the future? I agree. It is ironic, my first memory ever of being in church was when I was in a road show of the “Emperor’s New Clothes” I was the little kid who shouted “But the emperor isn’t wearing anything!”
I feel that the church could benefit from someone saying that.
Not from a perspective of shaking the faith of the faithful, but of people acknowledging that faith is a journey that does go places other that the “strait and narrow”.
I think it is changing. church0333 wrote:…I have opened up to a few trusted friends and one seemed shocked (very TBM) but the other(former Bishop) agreed with most of my concerns. All of us are active but I’m very surprised that there are more people out there than I thought. For the longest time I felt so alone.
I’m wondering if more people who do go to church are in the same boat as many of us but they just don’t talk about it.It give me hope but at the same time mades me sad that the church that I love so much seems to be unravelling before my eyes. It was so much more simple before the “truth” ruined everything. So, what do you guys think? Is the “truth” going to continue to get out there and will we see the church change durning the next generation or will it adapt to the new “truth” and become stronger or just fade away?Are there any Prophets out there that can tell me the future? Personally I don’t expect the Church to do much anytime soon to adapt to recent trends other than a few relatively minor tweaks like the missionary age change. Basically I get the impression that Church leaders don’t really know what they can or should do about an increasing number of members losing their testimony mostly due to the internet exposing information that isn’t faith promoting toward the Church. For one thing, I don’t think most Church leaders believe they should make any major changes because they are already convinced that some of the biggest deal-breakers like tithing and the WoW were directly established and supported by God through revelation. So if some members don’t want to pay a full tithe they think the only possible answer to this is that these disobedient members supposedly need to repent and anything less than that is not acceptable.
That’s why my guess is that the Church will gradually decline over the next few decades and become almost completely irrelevant worldwide within 50-100 years compared to its relative high point in the mid to late 1990s. Sure the total membership numbers continue to go up but only a small minority of converts and children counted as new members each year will remain active very long and/or successfully pass all these traditions on to the majority of their children so mostly increasing the number of inactive members is not real sustained growth. I could also see the Church evolving to become more like the Catholic Church where the leaders still take themselves very seriously and try to uphold tradition at all costs but individual Catholics don’t necessarily pay that much attention to what they say anymore but that would require a significant shift in the culture toward more tolerance and having more members actually like the Church enough to stick around without depending quite so much on the idea that this is what they are supposed to believe and do mostly because it is allegedly true and right (sense of obligation).
rebeccad wrote:I agree.
It is ironic, my first memory ever of being in church was when I was in a road show of the “Emperor’s New Clothes” I was the little kid who shouted “But the emperor isn’t wearing anything!”
I feel that the church could benefit from someone saying that.
Not from a perspective of shaking the faith of the faithful, but of people acknowledging that faith is a journey that does go places other that the “strait and narrow”.
At the risk of a derail… I’ve got to ask… How on earth did they manage to do Emperors New Clothes at a church roadshow? Maybe the brit version of the story had less clothing!
It’s indeed a beautiful irony.
I was home teaching another strong family (last sunday)and afterwards I was visiting the parents and some of the history of the church came up and some of our crazy approachs and some of the nutty stuff our stake is doing (like locking people out of meetings if they are not on time…”the wedding has started”) Exclusion is the name of the game here….don’t wear flip flops, sports jerseys, facial hair anywhere near here!
Anyways…found out we are in the same place….lots of people you would think are true stalwarts are having their doubts….I truly hope the church finds a way to embrace it so they can avoid the 40 year walk in the desert waiting for the old stubborn folks to die…
Quote:like locking people out of meetings if they are not on time…”the wedding has started”
Seriously?! That needs to be reported up the chain, even if it has to be done anonymously. I mean it. There is no way the top leadership would approve if they knew about it.
johnh wrote:I was home teaching another strong family (last sunday)and afterwards I was visiting the parents and some of the history of the church came up and some of our crazy approachs and some of the nutty stuff our stake is doing (like locking people out of meetings if they are not on time…”the wedding has started”)
Exclusion is the name of the game here….don’t wear flip flops, sports jerseys, facial hair anywhere near here!
Anyways…found out we are in the same place….lots of people you would think are true stalwarts are having their doubts….I truly hope the church finds a way to embrace it so they can avoid the 40 year walk in the desert waiting for the old stubborn folks to die…
Seriously, locking the door? Our old bishop a few years ago tried to say only Priesthood holders with missionary style haircuts and clean shaven could bless and/or pass the sacrament. I was one of his councilor and I told him I supported the concept in part but I would not be the one to enforce it. He asked the other councilor to tell a certain deacon that he couldn’t pass the sacrament until he got his hair cut and he too told him if that was his policy he alone would have to enforce it. The Bishop didn’t want to be the bad guy so he said nothing at that time but made a little speech in opening exercise. The young men president who had facial hair along with both of his councilors told the Bishop that if they where not worthy to bless the sacrament because of facial hair than they should all be released. Needless to say that policy lasted all of two weeks.
sorry…lock was a figuritive term…fire codes and all. They had people standing there refusing entry. “Locking out” – It happened for nine years in the Stake I live in. The Stake Pres. created a whole new order. No sacrament passing in the foyers – So parents who took babies to the hall never got a chance. There you were either having a disruptive 2 year old, and causing the spirit to leave the meeting, or missing the ordinance. You couldn’t have both. But yes chapel doors were shut and held closed from the meetings opening until after the sacrament was complete. Then a flood of late comers could come strolling in. I could spend hours on his style, but won’t. I use it only to show that even up the chain – amazing things happen. Locking out doesn’t surprise me.
I too feel more are thinking these things then we think. Also seems much more acceptable to talk about then it once was. I have seen very little harsh judgement from others as I have discussed these things. Quote:rebeccad wrote:I agree.
It is ironic, my first memory ever of being in church was when I was in a road show of the “Emperor’s New Clothes” I was the little kid who shouted “But the emperor isn’t wearing anything!”
I feel that the church could benefit from someone saying that.
Not from a perspective of shaking the faith of the faithful, but of people acknowledging that faith is a journey that does go places other that the “strait and narrow”.
At the risk of a derail… I’ve got to ask… How on earth did they manage to do Emperors New Clothes at a church roadshow? Maybe the brit version of the story had less clothing!
I don’t remember, I was very young and didn’t really understand much of what was going on at all. In fact, it was only years later that I figured out what the line I had memorized meant.
Back to the original topic: In reading the great summaries of Ray’s lessons, I think that lessons like that are a good place to start. With my own children, I try to balance not saying how deeply my own beliefs differ from the church, but to still set the stage for them to ask questions and feel comfortable about it later.
As for at church, the atmosphere needs to change to one where instead of highly valuing strength of testimony, we value…
I don’t even know how to complete that thought except for …each other.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:
That’s why my guess is that the Church will gradually decline over the next few decades and become almost completely irrelevant worldwide within 50-100 years compared to its relative high point in the mid to late 1990s. Sure the total membership numbers continue to go up but only a small minority of converts and children counted as new members each year will remain active very long and/or successfully pass all these traditions on to the majority of their children so mostly increasing the number of inactive members is not real sustained growth.DevilsAdvocate, I have much the same thought. My thinking is that we could end up a bit like Jews with several groups claiming to be Jews but living vastly different lifestyles. It makes me wonder about my children and grandchildren – I want to provide them a foundation for a happy life (and I think the church can help with that) but I don’t want them to end up in a religion that is viewed as extreme. There are many things I love about this church and a few things I just cannot bear and it would make me sad if it completely fizzled.
It also seems that religion in general is becoming less important in much of the world, so the LDS church is swimming a bit upstream anyways in addition to all the things that make us different than other Christian religions.
Life and societal trends are cyclical. I see the Church continuing to evolve and not decline. I don’t envision becoming the next Catholic Church, but I’ve never seen numerical growth as an indication of anything other than numerical growth, so I’m completely fine with not seeing the explosion that was all the rage to predict a couple of decades ago. Old-Timer wrote:Life and societal trends are cyclical. I see the Church continuing to evolve and not decline. I don’t envision becoming the next Catholic Church, but I’ve never seen numerical growth as an indication of anything other than numerical growth, so I’m completely fine with not seeing the explosion that was all the rage to predict a couple of decades ago.
Ray, I genuinely hope you’re right and I think it may depend on this topic of “being open to others” to a good degree.
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