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Frankly, I think having a European member of the First Presidency who also is very much more a David O. McKay leader rather than a Bruce R. McConkie leader is making and will continue to make a huge difference. I also see little indicators all over the landscape, including things like the use of “grace” exponentially more often than in my lifetime and the wording of “Preach My Gospel” compared to how missionary work used to be framed. (I really do need to do a series of posts about PMG. One of these days, I will get to it.)
Roadrunner wrote:DevilsAdvocate, I have much the same thought. My thinking is that we could end up a bit like Jews with several groups claiming to be Jews but living vastly different lifestyles. It makes me wonder about my children and grandchildren – I want to provide them a foundation for a happy life (and I think the church can help with that) but I don’t want them to end up in a religion that is viewed as extreme. There are many things I love about this church and a few things I just cannot bear and
it would make me sad if it completely fizzled…It also seems that religion in general is becoming less important in much of the world, so the LDS church is swimming a bit upstream anyways in addition to all the things that make us different than other Christian religions.Old-Timer wrote:Life and societal
trends are cyclical. I see the Church continuing to evolve and not decline.I don’t envision becoming the next Catholic Church, but I’ve never seen numerical growth as an indication of anything other than numerical growth, so I’m completely fine with not seeing the explosion that was all the rage to predict a couple of decades ago. The reason I think a significant decline is inevitable if the Church remains almost exactly the same as it is now is mostly because the Church currently depends so much on Mormon traditions like full time missions and temple marriage being successfully passed on from one generation to the next to maintain support and it looks like this is not happening to quite the same extent as before. For example, I see grandparents now that are still devout Mormons that are the end of the line for the Mormon tradition after many generations and I doubt this would be nearly as likely to see 20 years ago.
Basically it looks like it was easier for the Church to get away with consistently losing over 60 percent of members to inactivity before than it will be from now on because the larger family sizes on average in the past and new converts always more than made up for these losses. But now it looks like it is just a matter of time before net losses will start being compounded in each successive generation where we used to always see net gains compounded before and the internet and increasing disparity between the Church’s teachings and the mainstream culture have started to erode the active membership base even more than before.
I can’t say that I am happy about this idea but at the same time I can’t say that I really blame all the members that fall away too much either with all the different factors that can make it a real struggle to remain active year after year nowadays. One of the most frustrating things for me about the Church is that I have a general idea about what it could be regardless of any truth claims if they would simply focus more on what I would consider the real gospel (faith, hope, charity, forgiveness, treating people as well as possible, etc.) and less on strict obedience to rules and routines like tithing and the WoW but when I listen to conference talks and correlated lessons it doesn’t sound like this is very likely to happen in a significant way anytime soon.
church0333 wrote:…It was so much more simple before the “truth” ruined everything. So, what do you guys think? Is the “truth” going to continue to get out there and will we see the church change durning the next generation or will it adapt to the new “truth” and become stronger or just fade away? Are there any Prophets out there that can tell me the future?
“Who knows what tomorrow brings… in a world few hearts survive.All I know is the way I feel
When it’s real, I keep it alive
The road is long, there are mountains in our way
But we climb a step every day
Love lift us up where we belong
Where the eagles cry on a mountain high
Love lift us up where we belong
Far from the world we know, up where the clear winds blow
Some hang on to “used to be”
Live their lives, looking behind
All we have is here and now
All our life, out there to find…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zje20q1eRCY I’ve had that song in my head & it just seemed fitting.
What I think and what I hope are different- but I’m trying to find ways to realistically merge them.
I don’t know about everyone else here – but personally, it’s not easy for me – searching for and dealing with “truth.”
For one thing, truth is in perspective… you may be hot, I’m cold – both true, just from different perspectives.
Generally, the more perspectives, the more truthful – the more possibilities considered, the more love and compassion based on understanding.
I think the church leadership really needs to simplify.
Symbols and parables are often purposefully ambiguous so that each can take what portion of truth resonates with them at that time.
We each have unique perspectives – there’s no “one size fits all” in spirituality.
Yet, it would be nice to have some guidance in navigating what seems at times like Indian’a Jone’s temple of doom.
“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, & MANY there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, & few there be that find it.”-Matt 7:13-14 “Many are cold, but few are frozen…” I mean,
“Many are called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, & aspire to the honors of men.”
– D&C 121:34-35 “Trust not in the arm of flesh.”“Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”
“God is love.”
“…Charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail – But charity is the pure love of Christ, & it endureth forever.”-Morno 7:46-47 Christ-like love is not just hugs and kisses, it is based on truth & understanding – striving for what is best, not just what is comfortable.
The church will fail unless it learns to care less about honors/callings/money and more about Christ-like love.
We had HC this morning and missionary reported his mission to us. One point he made was that in one area (he went to the Dominican republic) there were over 800 members on the rolls but less than 20 at church on any given Sunday. In another area there were about 200 members but less than handful would show up, some times only two besides the Elders. I don’t see how the church thinks it can have real growth. The missionary had a hard time on his mission and I would think that to see this happen would really cause one to question your testimony, not to mention all the other things that caused faith crisis. I have opened up a little more this week with a few other active members and again their reaction was for the most part they have the same thoughts. The Internet is here to stay and people are using it and it is opening a lot of eyes. I just hope we and the church can adjust. To tell the truth, I kind of afraid what the future will bring. For the most part I love the church but I’m not sure how it will not decline. TBMs probably think it will continue to grow because it is the one and only and that there is no other way. I’ve found that many more of the people I’ve shared my doubts with have a lot of the same doubts. My husband and I were talking about it the other day, wondering if it was just our generation or if it was the availability of info or both. We have a lot of older single/divorced friends and it seems like the only ones who we’ve talked to who haven’t had similar doubts are the ones who got married young, stayed married and ‘haven’t ever thought about those things before.’ HSAB wrote:I’ve found that many more of the people I’ve shared my doubts with have a lot of the same doubts. My husband and I were talking about it the other day, wondering if it was just our generation or if it was the availability of info or both. We have a lot of older single/divorced friends and it seems like the only ones who we’ve talked to who haven’t had similar doubts are the ones who got married young, stayed married and ‘haven’t ever thought about those things before.’
So true
Doubt is good…. without it, there can be no faith! I think that our the growing generation will need to be taught a very different approach to embracing the gospel. The ease of access to challenging history means the church will need to find a way to address it and normalise it at an early age.
I intend to do so with my children.
Many parents (well…and sunday school teachers, bishops, stake presidents) react with fear, pompousness, or anger when kids question the church. I am still working with my wife to help her realize that questioning is a good thing. Most important trait, I feel, is for us to be “seekers of the truth”….and if the church is true then the their journey will bring them back. The few people I have “come out” to have been excited to find somone else who they can discuss the journey towards truth with. I hope one day this could happen in a church setting as it would really make sunday a wonderful experience and then 3 hours might not be long enough for church! Anyways…my new philosophy is “If its worth believing in, its worth questioning”
I have to admit, I keep trying to hit ‘like’ on people’s comments. HSAB wrote:I’ve found that many more of the people I’ve shared my doubts with have a lot of the same doubts. My husband and I were talking about it the other day, wondering if it was just our generation or if it was the availability of info or both. We have a lot of older single/divorced friends and it seems like the only ones who we’ve talked to who haven’t had similar doubts are the ones who got married young, stayed married and ‘haven’t ever thought about those things before.’
I love this comment. I think the church works well for those who are in this category. They go on missions get married have kids and are busy with work church and family. There is no time to question faith. The church is a different experience for people who are single or divorced. It really doesn’t provide a lot of things that those people want or need.
As far as the church goes. The internet is a game changer. It is like the printing press killing the dark ages and the Catholic church’s grip on Christianity. Once people have access to information they cannot go back to the way it used to be. When I was a kid in the 90’s the only access I had to material critical of the church would be from “whackos” demonstrating at Church events. They had absolutely no credibility. Now I have access to well thought out arguments full of facts with references from respected people on my phone. The church will never be the same. It won’t die but it will either be reduced to the hardcore tbm’s and the people in the third world without internet or it can adapt.
How would you like to be a missionary in the us now and teach people about Joseph Smith and the first thing they do when you leave is Google him? The church’s model is broken and it doesn’t even know it yet. How would you like to explain why you can drink energy drinks but not coffee or tea? And yet you claim to have revelation?
It’s not the church alone that is having these problems. All of religion has similar issues. It’s just that other religions can help people be spiritual without requiring as much sacrifice from members so they will fare better in this new world environment.
Just for the sake of factual objectivity, we think the LDS Church is facing unique issues and challenges largely because it’s our own tribe, and we know about our own issues much more intimately than we do the trials of others. Not to be an “all is well in Zion” statement, at all, but our Sunday activity rate is higher now than it was throughout the first half of the 20th Century, and it is as high as or higher than the same rate in pretty much every Christian denomination for which I’ve seen the numbers – and I say that as someone who researched those numbers a few years ago for another online group discussion. Yes, absolutely, there are issues the LDS Church is facing relative to conversion and retention (and, imo, the “spiritual health” of the active membership), but we are not alone or unique in any way in facing those issues. In fact, by all objective measurements I’ve seen, we are nowhere near the bottom half of the denominations who are struggling the most.
To the point of the post, “The (Global) Church” actually is becoming more and more “open to others” and has been on that path for at least a couple of decades. There are very obvious exceptions to being fully open to some, but even in the case of homosexuality, the LDS Church actually is near the vanguard of generally conservative churches in all areas except gay marriage. I know that’s damning with faint praise in this particular case, but it still is instructive in many ways.
There are LOTS of changes I would like to see in the Church regarding being more accepting of others, but Pres. Uchtdorf said in no uncertain terms that we need to “stop it” and not judge others “because they sin differently than we do”.
I see the change being made to move in the direction of “being open to others”, even as I recognize that we still have a long way to go in that direction. However, we don’t have nearly as far to go as we did when I was a youth and young adult. The changes in my lifetime have not been insignificant.
Old-Timer wrote:Just for the sake of factual objectivity, we think the LDS Church is facing unique issues and challenges largely because it’s our own tribe, and we know about our own issues much more intimately than we do the trials of others…Not to be an “all is well in Zion” statement, at all, but
our Sunday activity rate is higher now than it was throughout the first half of the 20th Century, and it is as high as or higher than the same rate in pretty much every Christian denomination for which I’ve seen the numbers– and I say that as someone who researched those numbers a few years ago for another online group discussion. Yes, absolutely, there are issues the LDS Church is facing relative to conversion and retention (and, imo, the “spiritual health” of the active membership), but we are not alone or unique in any way in facing those issues. In fact, by all objective measurements I’ve seen, we are nowhere near the bottom half of the denominations who are struggling the most.I can’t imagine that the internet will undermine business as usual for most other churches nearly as much as it already has for the LDS Church because the LDS Church currently relies so much on testimony of the restoration and the idea of its top leaders being prophets, seers, and revelators in order to justify the relatively high demands of active membership. To be honest I don’t see why most mainstream Christians should really care that much if they see atheists criticizing the Bible and belief in God on the internet; sure it will bother them but if they still want to believe it seems like it wouldn’t be that hard for them to honestly say that their church/faith is still worth it for them even if none of it is true.
On the other hand if super obedient Mormons get the impression that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc. weren’t everything the Church has tried to make them out to be after church has already been costing them 10% of their income for years along with all the time, effort, and inconvenience involved with full activity in the Church then it probably won’t be very easy to shrug off for most of them. Sure the Church continues to get results in terms of raw compliance but my concern is that the way it typically goes about doing this is already another problem that will mostly make things worse for an increasing number of members once they start to feel like the rationale for all this doesn’t make much sense anymore. Basically I think people that go to church should ideally be there mostly because they want to because they enjoy it or at least they don’t mind it that much rather than mostly because they feel like they are supposed to and others expect them to be there.
That is well and good at the philosophical level, DA – and I don’t argue with the general ideas in your comment, except as to how unique or pronounced they are in relation to the LDS Church. It is a measurable fact that the LDS Church isn’t struggling any more in general terms in the areas being discussed than most other Christian denominations – and the internet and availability of (often conflicting) information absolutely is impacting other churches every bit as much as it is the LDS Church, participation requirement differences notwithstanding. That was crystal clear and essentially unassailable in the research I did about conversion and activity rates only a couple of years ago. In fact, there appears to be a possible correlation between the level of commitment required and the overall participation / activity / commitment level of the groups as a whole – perhaps because higher commitment levels necessitate more active justifications and deeper “faith”. (hope in and perceived evidence of things not seen) In other words, the more that is required, the more likely someone is to find reasons to meet those requirements. There is an old maxim that applies and is repeated because it generally is accurate – and it has just as many positive effects as negative: Quote:If you want someone to do something, expect it of them.
I’m on record as saying I only do what I feel I can do without harming myself, my family and others, so ‘m not saying I am fine with all the demands on the membership of the Church (especially in some wards and branches), but this is a global religious issue, not just or even uniquely a Mormon issue – and it applies just as well to lots of businesses and athletic teams, as well. It’s a broadly applicable aspect of pretty much all “communities” of any kind.
Old-Timer wrote:That is well and good at the philosophical level, DA – and I don’t argue with the general ideas in your comment, except as to how unique or pronounced they are in relation to the LDS Church.
It is a measurable fact that the LDS Church isn’t struggling any more in general terms in the areas being discussed than most other Christian denominations – and the internet and availability of (often conflicting) information absolutely is impacting other churches every bit as much as it is the LDS Church, participation requirement differences notwithstanding. That was crystal clear and essentially unassailable in the research I did about conversion and activity rates only a couple of years ago.In fact, there appears to be a possible correlation between the level of commitment required and the overall participation / activity / commitment level of the groups as a whole – perhaps because higher commitment levels necessitate more active justifications and deeper “faith”. (hope in and perceived evidence of things not seen) In other words, the more that is required, the more likely someone is to find reasons to meet those requirements… The internet hasn’t really been around that long yet and it could take several generations to see the real long-term effects of this change work their way through the system. To me the current state does not really reflect that the Church has weathered the storm (people questioning their faith with easy access to more information than ever) as well or better than most other churches as much as simply being an indication of how many members are still not aware of some of the worst problems with the Church’s story or they don’t worry about these issues that much to begin with.
Also, even a small chink in the armor of many remaining active members could still end up impacting future generations significantly compared to what the Church is already used to seeing up to this point. For example, are members that have basically become amateur apologists in their teens or early twenties nearly as likely to have 8 children as members that never seriously questioned the Church until later in life if at all? I doubt it. The Church is not really competing directly with other churches in most cases other than with some of the converts and even then it seems like it is much more likely to convert lapsed Christians than very many devout followers of other sects. What the Church is really competing with is mostly the idea of staying home on Sunday and disregarding what it teaches for millions of existing members.
The problem is that most Church leaders apparently think they shouldn’t change much of anything to at least try to retain more members or get more “lost” members to come back to the fold and the “rescue” effort so far has mostly been about expecting rank-and-file members to try harder to repent or get other members to repent of their lack of conformity to Mormon traditions without ever daring to question the actual need for some of these traditions nowadays. That’s why the Church could really end up digging itself into a hole by the time Church leaders finally realize this approach is just not going to work quite as well as it used to anymore.
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