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This is sorta long but I’m going to try to keep it short. My parents are super orthodox TBM and I was raised in an emotionally abusive atmosphere where the church, it’s teachings, etc. were used as a tool of that abuse.
I’ve had many discussions with my mom about my childhood and how it has affected me as an adult. She feels true sorrow and regret for her role in this and has openly discussed how she wishes she had done it different.
Today, we talked again in depth about this whole process. Long story short, I explained how I often felt as a child that the church was more important than me. At least to her. She would arrange a large portion of her life around church and church related activities, mostly service. As a rule, I knew that that came first. It always did and, over time, the expectation was set as such.
As part of my healing from this abuse and recovering from codependency, I have come to peace with my childhood, and I accept the intentions of my parents. They really thought they were doing the right thing. It’s not an excuse for them, but I would rather understand that the intention was mostly good.
Of course, as an adult, when I get the sense or hear a talk in church that someone’s belief is more important than the person, I am repulsed. I have many negative thoughts and feelings around concepts like killing in the name of God, “chosen people”, jealous God, etc.
I now recognize that this repulsion stems from this childhood abandonment by my parents: choosing God/church over me.
In discussing this with my mom today, I mentioned that I don’t get the sense or the feeling that she would change this aspect of her parenting, given the chance to do it over knowing what she now knows.
She said that she doesn’t think she should have to choose between the church and validating this feeling that I have. Of course, I didn’t frame it in that way, but I could recognize her dilemma. And, it all came flooding back again: choosing the church over me.
I totally recognize how unhealthy that reaction was and possibly the whole conversation was inappropriate, but it did get me to thinking.
Can those who are past stage 3 truly commune with someone who is “stuck” in stage 3? I’m not placing any value on any aspect of that question. I spent hours baring my soul and received a testimony of the church in return. I’m not saying that from bitterness or disappointment, simply as a matter of the sense of the actual conversation.
I now sense with more conviction that, given these evidences, my mom would not actually raise me in a different way. Her belief is truly more important than me.
For clarity, I’m okay with that, despite the hyperbole.
Sometimes our expectations of what parents should be does not fit with the parents we have. I had parents that were completely into their own interests and their children were subservient to those interests. Yet they fed me, they clothed me, and I know they loved me. I am very content that I was able to grow up in the home I did. It could have been so much worse. Thanks for sharing that personal story. I do think your perspective on the relationship with your parents tells you some things about yourself and your own perspective. A couple of thoughts: – I would caution us against thinking of Stage 3 as a place where people get “stuck” as if it is somehow inferior or less developed than Stage 4 or Stage 5. It is a stage where most people live and die. I don’t think we should consider 80% of people as “stuck” if that’s working for them. People aren’t all the same.
– All parents are doing the best they can, and some people’s “best” is just really really bad. What you experienced doesn’t sound as abusive as many people have experienced. Honestly, all parents are going to, in one way or another, put their own interests ahead of the child’s. It could be the church, or it could be any number of things: work, friends, their own siblings or parents, their intellectual pursuits, artistic pursuits or hobbies, a romantic affair, their marriage, etc. Children have a hard time with anything that reveals to them that they are not the center of the universe. That’s a realization that comes late for many. (Heck, many are still struggling with this idea well into middle age).
– Families being “kid-centric” is a relatively recent development in society. Until Victorian times, family life did not begin to consider the needs of the children in a very clear way. Children were expected to work long and hard because they were otherwise a serious burden to the family. Children were expected to at least zero out their financial drain on the family in one way or another, either through work, or through alliances when they married. Due to high infant mortality rates, parents didn’t attach to them the way parents do now. Likewise, the notion of “self-esteem” originated in about the 1950s.
Interesting thoughts! I might think of it in an oblique way…perhaps it is the belief that “the church” is the entity that gives you your purpose of life — what, why and how to do everything we do, so that concept is what “traps” many in stage three. If this is the case for a person, it becomes natural for one to put the defining entity as the number one priority (despite what may be actually taught). It becomes a safety blanket for many members…and it mostly works for them.
Like HG said, the individuality and self-esteem concepts are somewhat “new” to our culture, so it seems natural that “we” would view priorities differently than our parents. Like you, Swim, I find it helpful to view our parents as doing the best they can with what they were given…and work toward complete forgiveness. Also, I remember one of my “masters” teaching me that in a more enlightened, and less codependent state, “forgiveness” is only a process that we need to apply to ourselves. There is nothing to forgive another for when we understand we are the only ones responsible for our own lives and happiness.
I even see my own children naturally living a more emotionally healthy life…it seems they don’t give the “church” the power that our parents did…they seem to be much more individually connected with “Source” than we were…yet they respect what the church leaders say. I think it’s good!
Thank you so much for your comments. With a few days to reflect, I’ve felt some release in accepting my mom’s true intentions. Even now. And, I think I understand, after some deep thinking, that her faith is actually her whole meaning. There is no option for something different. Her “eternal perspective” is unchangeable as it is as much a part of her as anything else. Defining her meaning is everything. I can’t wrap my brain (or heart) around what that is, at this stage in my life and with my current perspective, it feels too conceptualized. Not that my perspective isn’t an illusion either, but with a “broader” view, it feels more freeing, more honest, somehow.
I’m sure that’s just my perspective but, like many others have said here, once you’ve glimpsed that perspective, there is no going back. And, I’m sure this may seem unfair at some level, but I love and embrace the charity of a “broader” perspective.
And, that was my intention in the OP: I know that my mom can’t allow herself to accept the possibility that I can be “exalted”. In stage 3, a person can’t really empathize with someone of a different “faith”, not meaning religious faith but world-view faith. Without that empathy, sincere, honest communion seems impossible. Not that it’s necessary or important, just something I felt as we wrapped up our conversation.
I guess, in some way, I’m mourning that loss: that I’ll never have that with my mom again.
swim, the greatest irony is that the foundational theology of Mormonism allows for exaltation of those outside the faith throughout time – and that’s pretty easy for nearly all members to accept, since they don’t see and live and deal with those people’s weaknesses on a daily basis. That theology also allows for the exaltation of those inside the faith despite nearly ALL issues, but it’s harder for many members to accept that – since we tend to judge most and most harshly those whose weaknesses we see most clearly (ourselves often at the top of that list). Perhaps the greatest test of real charity inside the Church is how we deal with those who have let us down – who can’t live up to our expectations. Think about that, please, in relation not just to how your mother sees you but how you see your mother. She can’t seem to understand and accept and value fully you for who you are. She seems to judge you as being “less than” she is.
Are you doing the same thing with her?Absolutely, I am, Ray. Like I said elsewhere, my perspective feels elitist to me. There have been times when I’ve heard my parents crow about how much wisdom they’ve accrued over their long, difficult lives and yet, they’re just as close-minded and pig-headed as ever. They make very poor financial decisions, border-line unethical, they have a corrosive relationship with each other (yet they continue to work on it), they won’t take responsibility for their actions and inactions, and yet, they “know” without any doubt possible, what “Truth” is. And, they know it because of their life experiences and the “Spirit”.
So, in a nutshell, yes. I do judge them. I don’t get it. I can’t understand them or that mentality. The cog-dis is so deep it defies definition. And, I guess I’m an elitist for feeling that way. At least, I know I feel like one.
Despite my cynicism, I am aware of my own little hypocrisy. Interestingly, I only feel that towards my parents, even though I’m sure there are millions just like them. For some reason, I have no problem with the millions, just these two.
In finality, I’m aware of the elitist perspective of accepting all paths as equally valuable, though being the most charitable perspective, makes me wonder why it feels elitist.
Paradox, anyone?!?
😳 Sorry for the quick double-post but another epiphany: To be absolutely right, one has to be absolutely close-minded.
Obviously, I’m not insinuating that anyone claims to literally know absolutely everything (though my dad would be close), but rather, like everything, it’s a “sliding scale” or a “spectrum”. And, those who claim the most “truth” must also be amongst the most close-minded. By “close-minded” I mean “unwilling to consider alternatives to the perceived truth”.
And, to continue the spirit of the thread, I wonder if, on that spectrum, the capacity for true unconditional love somehow mirrors the capacity for “open-mindedness”.
Again, I recognize the elitist-sounding theory, not sure how to reconcile that.
I saw the title and thought that to a “Stage 3” individual (who holds the “Right” or “Good” spirit of belief) Beielf=Unconditional Love. Belief being teaching it, showing it, living it, testifying of it etc. to your children. Unfortunately (imo) the “Stage 3” faith that The Church (imo – which maybe they do or don’t .. I just feel this way at times) teaches, the faith that “Stage 3” parents indoctrinate into their own children, the “Stage 3” faith that rubs off/shows from other members can be Un-Christlike at times. Meaning close minded .. absolute .. and sometimes definately putting certain values/people over/under others .. completely backwards. My DH is such a smart guy. Honestly if DH hadn’t been so open and accepting of myself and my new change of faith .. I’m not sure if I would have had the patience to live with a “Close minded, absolute Stage 3” man. I’m not sure where he learned it from (with his Mom being very pushy with things at times) but he has openly and honestly choosen me over belief … I’m not sure about how sure he is at times but he currently practices true Christ-like love for me and my different beliefs and I couldn’t be more happy about it. I think a few things that opened him up were .. He grew up out of Utah/Idaho or any other State/City/Town with many Mormons in it
Be grateful that you take responsibility for your life and are independent – You can love your parents without trying too hard to figure out why they are the way they are .. Not b/c it isn’t important BUT to save yourself from the heartache/headache it will cause you.
Which is more important Unconditional Love or Unconditional Faith? Can they both be used at the same time? Or when someone is practicing Unconditional Faith does it decrease the need for Unconditional Love and vise versa. Is there a way to have both? Makes me feel like BOTH have conditions and kind of need them to coexist.
LaLaLove wrote:I Be grateful that you take responsibility for your life and are independent – You can love your parents without trying too hard to figure out why they are the way they are .. Not b/c it isn’t important BUT to save yourself from the heartache/headache it will cause you.
This statement is brilliant!
Hi Swim. Hard stuff, family systems. Don’t know if it helps, but I came from a family that couldn’t give me what I needed either. Quote:I guess, in some way, I’m mourning that loss: that I’ll never have that with my mom again.
What is it that you are mourning? Is it your mother’s approval? Do you equate approval with unconditional love?
I remember reading Mel Beattie and realizing inside of myself how much….how desperately I hungered for the approval of others and most often from people who were either unavaiable or unable to give it. I spose at some point I have had to learn how to give it to myself or to parent my inner self the way I wish my parents could have done for me. I don’t really know any other way to deal with it. They did their best but it wasn’t enough and I have to figure out a way to heal and detach from them and their dysfunctional processes.
Hard to separate the pain from the church when its used in abusive ways. I am sorry it happened for you that way. Have you ever read Byron Katie?
Swimordie, Thanks for making this post. It is an important subject to me; one I can relate to in many ways and brings up some serious questions I would like to ask everyone here. There is often a huge conflict to me in the church on this subject. On one hand the church preaches ‘family first’ and on the other hand it keeps people so busy with callings that they have little time for their families left over. Religion can be used as a weapon to keep people in line and can become abusive. My mom used it as a weapon to get us to do what she wanted but we understood she was mentally ill and not part of the gospel teachings so I did not hold it against the church. In time and with maturity I was able to forgive my mom for her craziness with religion, but it has had its negative effects on me, especially in regards to prayer. Fortunately, my dad was mentally healthy and did a great job loving the gospel and church, yet making my sister and I feel we always came first.
You look at the beginnings of the church when husbands left their wives sick with a bunch of kids to go on missions. That would be difficult to understand unless you got personal revelation and comfort from God himself that this was a necessary sacrifice to get the church started. My husband is a workaholic and a perfectionist. He is a research scientist and does excellent work. When he was in the church he performed all his callings well and went the extra mile. The problem was that he could not see he was neglecting me and our kids to do a good job in his callings. He also is a letter of the law type of guy and expected us to live the gospel perfectly. Because he could not see the spirit of the law, the letter of the law was killing our spirits. Intimacy is such a difficult thing for him and it was very difficult for him to meet our emotional needs. It almost destroyed our family and marriage. So, how does one manage the church and the family in their lives? What could the church do to make life better for families?
Thanks again for your responses. I’m always so touched by the warmth and sincerity of everyone here. Poppyseed wrote:What is it that you are mourning? Is it your mother’s approval? Do you equate approval with unconditional love?
I’m sure there may still be a little of that “wanting approval” component. I mean, it was always there my whole life until a year and a half ago so…
But mostly, I feel that I’m mourning the loss of intimacy, sharing openly and honestly, without ending up playing the whole “well, it says in Helaman…” game. It’s hard to express but I don’t feel co-dependent so I’m searching for the meaning/genesis of my current feelings. And, I don’t expect her to approve to show unconditional love, it just feels like she could at least acknowledge that my journey is just as “true” as hers; but, I know she can’t. And that’s fine. Really, it is.
😳 bridget_night wrote:So, how does one manage the church and the family in their lives? What could the church do to make life better for families?
Thanks for your comments bridget. I can’t really answer your question, but a thought I had when my mom said she’d do things differently: she said one thing she’d do was spend more quality time with each of us kids individually and she would have turned down the calling to be RS pres. when she had six kids under the age of 11.
I’m sure that would have been a start (though I actually doubt that she would do it, even knowing what she now knows) but from my experience it’s not just the time. It’s the emotional availability, the sincerity of concern, the sense of thoughtful understanding, feeling important, feeling unique. I’m not sure how much time it would take to share this. I don’t think it’s much time at all, it’s a mind-set, a perspective.
I told my mom this before. She said she always wanted for us kids to go to her with anything, any problem, concern, issue, whatever. I’ve told her that at that time, in those circumstances, she would have been the absolute last person in the world I would have talked to about any of that. It just wasn’t a safe place. Again, I don’t think that takes alot of time, rather it’s a mind-set or mentality.
I don’t know what the church could do. In many ways we are the church. We’re choosing to do this to ourselves. We’re too concerned with the sanctity of our own beliefs and the image that we are presenting to the world… I know that’s where my parents got hung up. It wasn’t so much the time, as it was the mind-set.
swimordie wrote:
I don’t know what the church could do. In many ways we are the church. We’re choosing to do this to ourselves. We’re too concerned with the sanctity of our own beliefs and the image that we are presenting to the world… I know that’s where my parents got hung up. It wasn’t so much the time, as it was the mind-set.
💡 This makes sense to me. I think it is human nature to want to find the reason/suspect of abuse/unhappiness. With religious situations it can make it difficult. Is it the Church .. Is it the parent? The “Church” is made up of many leaders, many opinions, the past .. the present and the future AND like you said, US, WE ARE The Church. The mind-set is a choice, or maybe it kind of isn’t in a “True” Church.
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