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Hi Everyone, Nibs brought up tithing on surplus in one of his recent posts, and it’s a topic I’ve been wanting to talk with my wife on a little earlier. During the first couple years or so of my “faith crisis”, my wife was the primary breadwinner. We’ve always had the mentality that no matter who “brings home the bacon”, we’re both working hard to build a happy home, and everything belongs to the both of us, with a joint decision required for any major expenses. It’s the way it should be.
Still… since my faith crisis I’ve strongly felt that a 10% tithe on my income could be better spent elsewhere. It felt wrong to bring it up to my wife, when she was bringing in an income, to say, “Hey, how about you only give 5% your paycheck to the Church. I want to give my 5% to Doctors Without Borders.” Now, through an incredible reversal of fortune (that I do not deserve), I have become the primary provider, while my wife can fulfill her dream of being a Stay-at-Home Mother. And I started to struggle again with the fact that such a large chunk of our income was going towards the Church. I think this is mathematically true for most people, but paying tithing on my Net is giving the Church more per hour for the three hour Sunday block than I make before taxes (and a LOT more than I make after). Combine that with the fact that I don’t particularly feel benefited by Church most Sundays, never receive help no matter how badly needed, and feel condemned more often than not, paying tithing has become increasingly difficult. In the end, I figured since my wife is a staunch TBM, our rather large contribution was like we were paying for my wife’s psychological well-being. Which, as expensive as it is, I’d gladly pay for.
We’ve also recently been blessed with being able to buy a home. However, doing the math, if we spent the money we put towards tithing instead towards paying off our home, we could be done with our mortgage a full FOURTEEN YEARS sooner. Fourteen years of being 100% debt free. That’s being out of debt by the time my oldest is 16, versus being out of debt when she’s older than I am.
I REALLY want to transition to paying on Surplus, instead of Net like we do now. But I need a good solid case. How do you recommend approaching this with a TBM Spouse?
dande48 wrote:
I want to give my 5% to Doctors Without Borders.”
DWB/MSF is a fantastic charity. I plan on giving my “tithing” to them during SGDQ this year. (SGDQ is a gaming marathon where they play through games as fast as possible and raise money for charity) It will do at least 100x as much good as my tithing ever did.I don’t really know how to approach it, honestly. The only way I can think of is pointing out alternative charities that do more good in the world than the church, but any TBM is going to be defensive about that.
You could also show scriptural and historical evidence that surplus is what Joseph Smith intended. The whole “pay on gross” thing is not scripturally supported at all.
I think your 5% split contribution is a solid compromise as well, especially if you want to go the route of not paying tithing at all.
Going in with the goal of convincing or expecting a specific outcome is probably a bad idea but that’s just my reaction to the title of the thread. Here’s a link from the February 2008 New Era that I was going to share in the other thread:
Do I pay tithing on my income before taxes are taken out or on what I receive after taxes?Quote:The First Presidency has answered this question in this way: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, Mar. 19, 1970).
In other words, the way you define your income, and consequently your tithing, is a matter between you and the Lord. Prayerfully seek the Lord’s guidance on issues like taxes, gifts, scholarships, and other matters to determine what qualifies as a full tithe.
Of note: they don’t answer the question. They underscore the importance of it being a matter between you and the lord. It says, “Prayerfully seek the Lord’s guidance on issues like taxes…and other matters to determine what qualifies as a full tithe.”
In the past I never prayerfully sought the lord’s guidance, I just took someone else’s prayerfully sought out guidance (payment on gross) as
theanswer. I think there’s a lot of stuff like that at church, we take one person’s answer and assume it applies equally to all. Doing that deprives us of the blessing of receiving personal revelation. So you could possibly approach it that way. Let’s ask the lord what we should pay to the church for tithing. Then use those early section D&C scriptures, “you took no thought save it was to ask me” as a way to introduce various options you’ve thought out. Payment on gross, net, surplus, charities, etc.
My wife and I have also always considered any income we receive to be “ours” because we are partners in raising a family and we couldn’t do what we do without one another. When I decided that I wanted to stop paying a full 10% to the church I assumed it was going to be a major sticking point or trauma to my wife so I approached her with the concept of her using 5% of my salary (I am the sole breadwinner) to pay tithing if she wanted to. I was pleasantly surprised when she actually turned down the proposition and just wants to pay on her own income (which is hardly anything). She did not explain her decision but I gladly accepted it! So you never know dande, she just might surprise you!
I believe this to be tricky. My honest opinion is that any attempt to convince her based upon some sort of historical calculation will just come across as selfish justification.
I believe that the best course of action would be to stop paying tithing entirely based on your increasing feelings of bitterness and “being taken advantage of”. You cannot reach a place of balance and peace if you are feeling that the church is bleeding you dry. This must be a step that you NEED to take in order to maintain sanity and your relationship with the church. I am sure that this will not be without its pitfalls and trauma – beware and tread cautiously.
If you can successfully transition to not paying tithing then, I believe, at some point in the future you could more easily transition to paying “tithing” based on surplus. This for you would be more sustainable, would be in line with some interpretations of early church leaders, and would at that point reflect an
increaseon what you would have been paying. Your move to pay a form of tithing at that point may be received very positively. As always, this is just an idea. Because it could potentially hurt your marriage – I strongly advise you to carefully consider and personally own whatever your next steps may be.
In our marriage we came to an agreement but it took time. We did baby steps. I value tithing. I think it has great merit (I am talking scriptural). Take the time. Don’t try to convince someone of your belief. It never works. Share your concerns then step back and wait.
Like Mr. Snee said, you may be surprised.
mom3 wrote:
Don’t try to convince someone of your belief. It never works.Share your concerns then step back and wait.
I second this advice and I’ll share what happened with me and my wife. A few years ago I floated the idea of changing how we tithe and I talked about that there’s no formal definition of tithing. My wife disagreed and we just put it on the backburner. Over the course of a year or two she gradually changed her position and there was no forcing or anger involved but it took time.
I will share an unintended consequence though. My father in law and brother in law are both accountants and they together prepare tax returns every year for a large number of clients, including my wife and me. They must have noticed a charitable contribution figure different than what they expected and they sent us a letter trying to gently tell us to pay our tithing. In their defense they probably sent the letter to all of their kids and grandkids.
This letter really bothered me so I threw it in the trash and told my wife we were changing accountants (which we did) because it’s none of their business. I just assumed they would be professional about it, but behold my disappointment was great.
Beefster wrote:
You could also show scriptural and historical evidence that surplus is what Joseph Smith intended.
As was just discussed on the RMN in Africa thread, that is… well, let’s say… debatable.With fear and trembling – and generally to be avoided (attempts at “convincing”). 
Frankly, I don’t believe in tithing surplus, unless you are willing to donate everything to the Church first – as On Own Now has mentioned. Donating only on surplus without the initial, comprehensive donation never has been a practice of the LDS Church, and it is not supported scripturally anywhere of which I am aware.
Old Timer wrote:
Frankly, I don’t believe in tithing surplus, unless you are willing to donate everything to the Church first – as On Own Now has mentioned. Donating only on surplus without the initial, comprehensive donation never has been a practice of the LDS Church, and it is not supported scripturally anywhere of which I am aware.
I gave an initial, comprehesive donation; I was baptized when I was 8, paid tithing on every earning/gift beforehand and since, and devoted two of my best years serving a mission, which literally took every cent out of my bank account. I don’t think either way is supported scripturally. The exact definition of what constitutes as 10% of your “annual interest” left open to interpretation.
I respect that completely, dande48. I simply meant I personally don’t believe in it. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
nibbler wrote:
Going in with the goal of convincing or expecting a specific outcome is probably a bad idea but that’s just my reaction to the title of the thread.Here’s a link from the February 2008 New Era that I was going to share in the other thread:
Do I pay tithing on my income before taxes are taken out or on what I receive after taxes?Quote:The First Presidency has answered this question in this way: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, Mar. 19, 1970).
In other words, the way you define your income, and consequently your tithing, is a matter between you and the Lord. Prayerfully seek the Lord’s guidance on issues like taxes, gifts, scholarships, and other matters to determine what qualifies as a full tithe.
Of note: they don’t answer the question. They underscore the importance of it being a matter between you and the lord. It says, “Prayerfully seek the Lord’s guidance on issues like taxes…and other matters to determine what qualifies as a full tithe.”
In the past I never prayerfully sought the lord’s guidance, I just took someone else’s prayerfully sought out guidance (payment on gross) as
theanswer. I think there’s a lot of stuff like that at church, we take one person’s answer and assume it applies equally to all. Doing that deprives us of the blessing of receiving personal revelation. So you could possibly approach it that way. Let’s ask the lord what we should pay to the church for tithing. Then use those early section D&C scriptures, “you took no thought save it was to ask me” as a way to introduce various options you’ve thought out. Payment on gross, net, surplus, charities, etc.
Nibbler’s post above is the best answer I could give. Sure, there are talks where GA’s and even apostles and prophets have made emphatic statements that it’s 10% of gross, or your wages etcetera, but the official policy leaves the discretion up to you. I would try to convince her of that.
Thinking mathematically, if you put the difference into paying down your mortgage, this will save you interest in the long run, which can be donated to the church over and above surplus later in life.
You could also comment on how we have two commandments in tension with each other, just like Adam and Eve in the garden of eden. First, to be debt free and self reliant, and yet to pay tithing. Indicate that for the time being, a liberal interpretation of “income” , consistent with the FP message above, seems to be the best way to navigate both commandments. Further, cite the fact that we have an article of faith that says we believe in worshiping almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and the FP letter about tithing seems to underscore that commandment.
Really underscore “
no one is justified in saying more than this”.Also, find the part in the D&C that discussed tithing as 10% of your interest! Someone looked up a dictionary from the year that revelation came out, and interest meant surplus at that time. That meaning has disappeared from our modern language. So you can rely on scripture if you can find that scripture.
The other thing — you could also cite that when we affirm our doctrine in conference, doctrine is defined as being in the holy scriptures. The holy scriptures don’t mention 10% of gross — they mention 10% of surplus.
I personally believe this is the true meaning of tithing, but the financial crises the church faced in the 19th century led to a statement that increased church revenue to help it survive. When the money starts rolling in, it’s hard to turn it off, particularly since we need to plan for a rainy day.
I would then make your personal decision, together.
You could also let her know you’ll never stand in the way of her paying tithing as she defines it. She can pay on her gross or net from her earnings, but you would like to pay as your conscience guides. That way she can answer the TR question with full integrity if she objects to your surplus method.
The thing that made me pick my own interpretation was an article by Michael D. Quinn, a church historian (not employed by the church, and no longer a member) who traced the history of tithing. After I read it, my personal conclusion was that the church leaders kept trying different ways to get the members to fund the church operations After some financial hardship, finally, they decided to implement the current method. I see talks and interpretations as simply the attempt of leaders at the time to fund the church’s needs — and now that this particular method is highly effective, it’s hard to turn off, even if at times they realize how much hardship it causes. They can’t turn it off even if they wanted to.
Report: I have an awesome, understanding, and very empathetic wife. Of course, tithing on surplus went against what she was taught growing up, and didn’t feel great about it at first. But after some heartfelt prayer, she felt it was alright with God if we did surplus. It was a compromise, but I felt things went pretty well. I appreciate all the comments, insights and suggestions. I especially liked all the convincing arguments that I shouldn’t try to convince her
Glad to hear it went well. You are a lucky man. Be good to your wife. :thumbup: Glad to hear it went well. It’s amazing how much power we have over our lives if we will only claim it!
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