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Kissing has nothing to do with the Gospel, the Law of Chastity, etc. – in and of itself. See, that was easy.
Now, to follow-up on wayfarer’s last comment, this is about the post, not other things. Let’s focus on our mission: Helping people find personal solutions that will being peace and happiness as they StayLDS.
I know little about the gay issue so I can not relate, which is a way to say I really know nothing about your situation. But it seems to me you are trying to have two things you deeply desire yet they are very opposed to each other at least in the current interpretation. I am not sure of a resolution other than to find a more accepting organization which seems much easier than trying to change your sexual orientation. It may be some time before the MOrmon church accepts you. Why waste those years of your life trying to fit in. Cadence wrote:I know little about the gay issue so I can not relate, which is a way to say I really know nothing about your situation. But it seems to me you are trying to have two things you deeply desire yet they are very opposed to each other at least in the current interpretation. I am not sure of a resolution other than to find a more accepting organization which seems much easier than trying to change your sexual orientation. It may be some time before the MOrmon church accepts you. Why waste those years of your life trying to fit in.
i see that point — but what if turinturambar truly has a burning testimony that the church is true for him? His willingness to sacrifice is own happiness is monumental. Leaving the church on his own volition may not be an option with as strong a testimony.This is undoubtably very hard indeed.
Old-Timer wrote:Kissing has nothing to do with the Gospel, the Law of Chastity, etc. – in and of itself.
See, that was easy.
Didn’t Jesus participate in that type of culture? I swear sometimes our ideas get way way out of hand!
Cadence, I can imagine the difficulty of being forced to choose between your core beliefs, culture, heritage, (a key part of your personal identity) and another key part of personal identity. It is not a “winable” decision. When one cannot change and the other has a chance of becoming more accomodating I say lean on that.
Old-Timer wrote:Kissing has nothing to do with the Gospel, the Law of Chastity, etc. – in and of itself.
See, that was easy.
Now, to follow-up on wayfarer’s last comment, this is about the post, not other things. Let’s focus on our mission: Helping people find personal solutions that will being peace and happiness as they StayLDS.
I would say that kissing is very important in the original church and gospel:Romans 16:16 — “Greet one another with a holy kiss”
I Corinthians 16:20 — “Greet one another with a holy kiss”
II Corinthians 13:12 — “Greet one another with a holy kiss”
I Thessalonians 5:26 — “Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss”
I Peter 5:14 — “Greet one another with a kiss of love”
Yeah, there is that, wayfarer. :thumbup: We have to rid ourselves of the Victorian crap we inherited – which, ironically, is one reason I have far less trouble with Joseph’s life than many members and non-members do. I don’t like some of it, but, overall, I see someone who really did understand how warped our culture had become in that regard.
To the point of the post, I’m glad we’re living in a time when the pendulum is swinging back from the extreme of a few decades ago. I don’t want it to swing all the way back to the much earlier extreme, but I am glad it’s moving in that general direction.
About kissing…Paul says it four times: Romans 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.
1 Thessalonians 5:26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.
2 Corinthians 13:12 Greet one another with an holy kiss.
1 Corinthians 16:20 All the brethren greet you. Greet ye one another with an holy kiss.
😮 We can make Paul say just about anything, can’t we!👿 On a more serious note, here are some of my thoughts:
A couple of years ago, I met with my Stake President. After telling him my entire situation, he asked me a question I have never heard in an interview. “What do
youwant?” I was taken aback. I had never really thought about it. The most important question to me up to that point was “What shouldI want?” I think I answered “Well, I want to stay in the church. I want to keep my covenants. I don’t like being alone, though. Some of my best times have been having men as roommates. A buddy to do stuff with every once and a while. A comforting presence in the background. I suppose I wish that I could have a buddy as a roommate for the rest of my life. But that isn’t really possible–my buddies should get married. They aren’t really complete without a wife. I can’t really find buddies right now, because the men who should be my buddies have wives, and kids, and don’t really have time for me.” One of my favorite talks by a GA is a talk about sex by Elder Holland.
http://www.familylifeeducation.org/gilliland/procgroup/Souls.htm shouldbe a sacrament. In spite of my powerful feelings about men, I believe that there is an inherent masculine and feminine in the universe that must be joined for perfection to be possible. So as much as want another man, I feel in some deep part of me that my “other half” is the
Ewig-Weibliche, the Eternal Womanhood, which I cannot get from another man. For men, “Das Ewig-Weibliche zieht uns hinan”–The Eternal-Feminine draws us upward (from Goethe’s Faust–an amazing work). The record has shown, however, that I don’t want the eternal feminine as straight men do. If sex can’t be a sacrament for me, should I even want it? I fully believe that, for myself, my attraction to the Eternal Feminine will be restored to me, but maybe not in this life. So what am I to do with my competing conviction of the LDS doctrine of the soul and of eternal marriage, and my homosexual reality? I don’t know. On some of the others questions that have arisen on this thread, I have a few thoughts.
I used to participate in an online group for LDS gays who seek to be TBM. There was a member of the site with a very touching story. He and his current roommate were once gay lovers. Both of them contracted HIV, and one of them has some serious health problems as a result. They have since decided to stop the sex, but to stay together and take care of one another. Their bishop is supportive of this. They live in the Bay Area, where members have become a bit more loving about gay people through their service to one another. If this story were played out in another place, it could have ended differently. Part of the priesthood leader roulette that sometimes happens. The Church really doesn’t have much in the way of policy for situations like this, and we’re left dealing with individual prejudices and inconsistent treatment. It’s almost as if the church is crossing its fingers and hoping that we can’t stay, because then they would have to figure out the logistics! (maybe that’s a bit too unkind).
Anyway, Wayfarer’s exchange with the missionaries today was a bit enlightening. Other than the handful of statements by Elders Kimball, Packer, Oaks, and Holland, there really isn’t much LDS writing about the issue. Pres Kimball’s son and biographer mentioned that near the end of his life, he regretted some of his harsh writings on homosexuality. I think Elder Packer honestly believes that God couldn’t possibly allow a person to develop homosexual feelings–that it would make God unjust. Elder Oaks and Holland seem to have the most compassion about the issue. But it’s the writings of Kimball and Packer that resonate in the ears of many. And I think a lot of members just really haven’t thought very deeply about the issue, and are likely to parrot these soundbites without thinking about the real consequences. Wayfarer caught them on that. I don’t think he meant to play “gotcha”, but I do think it’s enlightening about the state of affairs as it currently stands.
Anyway, there are a lot of ideas to explore with this issue. I am just wondering if I need to take a bit of a break from the three hour block to reorient myself and construct a life Christ-centered life in the church that better meets my needs. I have tried staying away, but it’s just not me. I want to leave a better church for gays in the future. It’s just so darned painful and difficult. And this is where I need some advice about moving forward.
It looks like Wayfarer beat me to the punch! :crazy: On a brief note I will say that I am confused. When I was 14 I went on a date and had a kiss goodnight. I was called into a meeting where I was told that dating before 16 was violating church policy and kissing was breaking the law of chasity. The bishop and community affirmly told to me that any display of affection was breaking the law of chasity and the bishop would have to take my temple recommend away. Which he did. So sigh, I’m confused now. Turinturambar– although I don’t know much about your situation I commend you for your courage to strive for your beliefs in a most difficult road. I can only relate that yes living almost entirely alone since 21(I am 38 now) it has been a long hard journey for me without a roommate, not having any family closely , my friends married and just to busy for time anymore.
I can relate in that regard. I can understand in the sense of struggle for companionship. I think personally the LDS church has come far for gay members although it might not look like it at times(they used to just give “the miracule of forgiveness” book to those that confessed having feelings of the same sex and told to follow its advice as doctrine where I grew up).
I think it matters very much where you live, San Francisco and some new York areas are probably the most understanding.
I’ve had my share of challenges in the church and I to choose to stayLDS. It can be frustrating at times but others it can feel supremely rewarding. I wish I could contribute more but my experience is limited. I’ll be here for support though. I love your positive attitude despite the situation. It speaks volumes.
Forgotten_Charity wrote:On a brief note I will say that I am confused. When I was 14 I went on a date and had a kiss goodnight. I was called into a meeting where I was told that dating before 16 was violating church policy and kissing was breaking the law of chasity. The bishop and community affirmly told to me that any display of affection was breaking the law of chasity and the bishop would have to take my temple recommend away. Which he did. So sigh, I’m confused now.
This is so wrong. dead wrong. destructively wrong. heinous, vile, mean-spirited. and I haven’t even gotten started. What that bishop did is plant into the mind of a 14 year old something that will never go away. Both the destruction of self esteem, coupled with an association between legitimate expressions of affection and “the sin next to murder”. It’s just wrong wrong wrong.One name comes out as totally relevant to this: Kip Eliason.
Well did Jesus call those who foisted such diseased thinking onto people “a generation of vipers”.
the church in its most authoritative source claims that the Law of Chastity is explicit to restrict “sexual relations” outside of marriage (after 1990), and before 1990, “Sexual Intercourse” was the term. By linking innocent kissing or holding hands to a violation of the Law of Chastity is to contaminate the Law. Speaking from personal experience, once I felt I had violated ‘the law’, then the actual limits of the law are no longer relevant. Having one kiss therefore is equivalent to incest, pederasty, rape, group sex, and bestiality, because ‘the Law of Chastity’ has been broken.
I have had to do so much to try to undo this damage. I live with it every day, and to some extent, it will never go away.
Forgotten_Charity wrote:I’ve had my share of challenges in the church and I to choose to stayLDS. It can be frustrating at times but others it can feel supremely rewarding. I wish I could contribute more but my experience is limited. I’ll be here for support though. I love your positive attitude despite the situation. It speaks volumes.
Excellent post, F_C.F-C, your Bishop was wrong. Period. I love your attitude, turinturambar, and I think there is a ton of wisdom in what you wrote.
turinturambar wrote:…Boy, I am grateful for the shoulders to cry on. I understand that the choice faced by people like me is very difficult, and that many choose to leave and find a life partner. I can’t fault them for that–I know very well what they’re feeling. I’d like to stay, and try. But I won’t accept the demands of others for me. I want to choose my path, and I want to choose the church.
I think this applies to many of us here, at least for me, I don’t like all aspects of church, but I do like some, so I’m trying to figure out a way to live with the church without losing myself in it.Quote:I’d really like to see a church where the members understand that nobody chooses their sexual orientation. That therapy only sometimes works. That we need a church where people aren’t deathly afraid to declare a homosexual orientation. A place where, rather than zealously demanding celibacy and leaving us on our own to sort out the details, there are viable, institutionally supported celibate life paths for those whose circumstances do not allow for traditional heterosexual marriage.
I think it’s important to understand how any conflict arises, including the conflict you’re experiencing – feeling same-sex attraction, yet wanting to live the LDS gospel. There has been some research in what causes same-sex attraction, yet too much of it is interpreted in a way to give up individual power… “I can’t help it, I’ve got ADD.” I’ve read that there is a coorelation between gay men & having a passive or absent father & domineering mother. Of course, this is not always the case, but there was a statistic coorelation. Some have been sexually abused. There’s evidence that not only mothers’ hormones change after becoming parents & parenting a while, but so do fathers’ – suggesting that feelings & behavior affects hormones in a cyclic way.I don’t think we choose feelings, including sexual feelings for the same sex. Yet, I do think we have some choice in thoughts, which precede feelings. We are not born with sexual inclinations – it’s impossible. Babies can’t even distinguish the difference between themselves & their care-givers, let alone gender differences. And we are born with brains only 1/4 developed, so we can better adapt to environmental influences. Still, there can be hormonal issues or genetic predispositions that if present along with environmental conditions, can create certain emotions/motivations.
Quote:I’d love to stay and work for these things, but what can one person do? And how do I maintain my sanity in the meantime, especially when church is so blasted tedious? Christ is the only One who can really lift my burdens, but it seems I hardly hear about Him at church…my ward only wants to talk about families…
I agree – if it were truly a church of Christ, there would be more focus on healing the kindgom of God within each of us.I think the tediousness is partly due to an attempt to keep things unified.
Quote:Sorry about the length. I hope that I haven’t offended anyone… I’m afraid I may have…
😳
I don’t want to offend you either, Turinturambar. I feel strongly about this because I’ve lost 2 friends to AIDS & have family & friends who are struggling like you are. You are not alone in this. I believe loving is not just supporting someone no matter what they think, feel or do, although empathy can be soothing. I believe loving someone involves striving for what’s best, even it’s not an easy road. Facts are important, not to be denied, yet I’ve often seen denial in those who want to support homosexual marriage. I’ve been hurt by such others, called all kinds of names, even people have somehow found personal information about me to threaten me with. I don’t like how freedom of speech is ok…. unless you’re talking about homosexuality.Yet, I also see some black and white thinking from those in the church & other Christians.
They ignor-antly say homosexuality is wrong because God says so… when in reality it’s harmful, so that’s why God says so.
And as you mentioned, you can’t choose feelings… it’s like a rocket that goes off – it’s going off whether you like it or not. Yet, you can try to steer it how you want and can figure out what caused the rocket to ignite.
wayfarer wrote:what if turinturambar truly has a burning testimony that the church is true for him? His willingness to sacrifice is own happiness is monumental. Leaving the church on his own volition may not be an option with as strong a testimony.
Way’s description of Turinturbar’s situation reminds me of the words of Lucy Walker a plural wife to JS.
Quote:“I felt at this moment that I was called to place myself upon the altar a living Sacrifice, perhaps to brook the world in disgrace and incur the displeasure and contempt of my youthful companions; all my dreams of happiness blown to the four winds, this was too much , the thought was unbearable.” She refused for the second time and told him to never speak to her again about the subject. He promised her God would tell her it was right, and that night she had a manifestation. ”My room became filled with a heavenly influence. To me it was in comparison like the brilliant sunshine bursting through the darkest cloud. . . . My Soul was filled with a calm sweet peace that I never knew. Supreme happiness took possession of my whole being.” Lucy later says, “It was not a love matter, but simply the giving up of myself as a sacrifice to establish that grand and glorious principle that God had revealed to the world” (Bushman 492).
I do see some parallels and yet there are differences:
1) Lucy’s situation was supported by the church. Once polygamy went public I imagine there was even some esteem to having been/being a plural wife to the Prophet. Compton calls the situation “sacred loneliness” but at least it was considered sacred. What might be a modern equivalent? Sacred celibacy? Like in the Catholic Church? I’m afraid that we have tried very hard over the course of our history to distinguish ourselves from them and their way of doing things. It would be very difficult to establish something like that in the LDS church.
2) Lucy’s sacrifice was to “establish that grand and glorious principle that God had revealed to the world” IOW she believed that God was calling for her sacrifice for a greater purpose. Perhaps on a personal level it is possible to receive revelation that God is calling you to walk this road. Perhaps like the blind man from the NT that was blind so that the glory of God might be manifest – perhaps one may be called to walk that road to help others find compassion and love for brothers and sisters that are different. Yet even if God can bring good out of a tortured path – I don’t believe that this is the only way that He will love and accept you. There are many ways to bring positive change into this world, most of them that don’t involve giving up so much.
Turinturbar, I wish I had something to contribute that didn’t already fall into one of the categories of responses that you listed. You pretty much covered all of my bases. The only thing I have left to offer is my conviction/testimony that your worth/value to our Heavenly Father is not dependent on what you choose here or how you react to these trying set of circumstances. It is my hope that this information might help you to move forward (in whatever direction you choose) from a position of safety, “encircled about eternally in the arms of his love.” (2 Nephi 1:15).
At least you found us… Thank heaven for “tender mercies” right?
Your friend – Roy
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