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My son impressed me yesterday. For one thing, he stopped playing a game we were playing to show me cool things he learned in the bible!
😮 
He’s been reading Rick Riordan’s books & has been studying Greek in school.
He pointed out to me how so many biblical words are Greek… including words like hell… which is from the Greek God, Hades.
I’ve read that Christianity is based on Paganism (many gods). And I’ve also read that much of Christian theology is borrowed from Greek philosophers like Aristotle.
Mormon doctrine teaches paganism to an extent… that the universe was created by intelligences (likely including us) under the direction of a higher intelligence (God)… & that we are all gods in embryo. Except it seems that it’s been reduced to just 2 polar opposites… God & Satan… when really, there are likely many other types of gods or groups of intelligences/energies. It’s like if we had a phone book and you only had listed a Doctor and Police, you’d miss out on many other important aspects of society. And they say, “As above, so below.”
I believe that there is one God above all gods… & God is LOVE, which we should worship. Yet, I also think it’s essential that we acknowledge the many other energies within & around us or else we have less freedom (because we’re less aware).
Thoughts?
Quote:we have less freedom (because we’re less aware).
I really like that phrasing. It’s why I absolutely love the idea that:
Quote:“The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.”
We really do see through a glass, darkly – and admitting that simple fact allows us to explore in an attempt to see more clearly, which leads to discovery and insight and growth. Of course, that depends on our willingness and ability to embrace uncertainty and even confusion – and that, imo, is the biggest stumbling block to the principle that “the truth shall make you free”. Once we embrace the unknown / unknowable in this way, the next step is to grant that grace to everyone else and stop holding them to an unrealistic standard to which we don’t want to be held – and, therein, I believe, lies true freedom and awareness (the freeing nature of charity and why it [love] is the greatest commandment in the law.
As to the question of the post’s title, I think the Old Testament is based on the dominant religious perceptions of its time – which are not inconsistent at the most fundamental level with the Greek gods. The New Testament itself, didn’t do all that much to change it. Otoh, Christianity, as established in the first century AD and then by the Council of Nicea a couple hundred years later, was a radical departure from its Hebrew then Jewish origin. Mormonism, imo, is a fascinating combination of the two – and other religious traditions outside of that historical tradition. Old-Timer wrote:Quote:we have less freedom (because we’re less aware).
I really like that phrasing. It’s why I absolutely love the idea that:
Quote:“The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.”
We really do see through a glass, darkly – and admitting that simple fact allows us to explore in an attempt to see more clearly, which leads to discovery and insight and growth. Of course, that depends on our willingness and ability to embrace uncertainty and even confusion – and that, imo, is the biggest stumbling block to the principle that “the truth shall make you free”. Once we embrace the unknown / unknowable in this way, the next step is to grant that grace to everyone else and stop holding them to an unrealistic standard to which we don’t want to be held – and, therein, I believe, lies true freedom and awareness (the freeing nature of charity and why it [love] is the greatest commandment in the law.
Ray,Thanks for your comments.
I really needed this one especially.
I’ve been exploring my soul… good & bad… & I am more aware of my & others’ flaws.
I was brought up with examples of criticism… And while skepticism & attention to details have their places, they can also be annoying when they take up too much space… like it’s the focus.
I really like how you tied in the greatest commandment to embracing the fact that we don’t know everything.
Of course it’s good to think & try to choose the better of the choices… But we’re not commanded to condemn ourselves or others… but to love.
Maybe loving is wholisic… “holy”… because real love is unconditional… doesn’t judge lovable vs. not loveable… but embraces it all… good & bad.
Then when we accept the fact that we have both “good” & “bad” tendencies, we can then accept the gift of each…
IE: Sometimes I can be a pain in the booty. And sometimes I can be passive…. Opposites.
Being a pain in the booty is sometimes necessary (ie Jesus wipping people out of the temple)… & Being easy going can be necessary (when peacemaking is needed).
Old-Timer wrote:As to the question of the post’s title, I think the Old Testament is based on the dominant religious perceptions of its time – which are not inconsistent at the most fundamental level with the Greek gods. The New Testament itself, didn’t do all that much to change it. Otoh, Christianity, as established in the first century AD and then by the Council of Nicea a couple hundred years later, was a radical departure from its Hebrew then Jewish origin. Mormonism, imo, is a fascinating combination of the two – and other religious traditions outside of that historical tradition.
Yeah, I do like how Mormonism incorporates a lot.It makes me wonder if there is more truth in Paganism than I’ve previously thought.
And I wonder if an awareness of various gods/energies would be helpful spiritually… ie: Emotional Intelligence.
I like your sig…
“I see through my glass, darkly – as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God’s orchestra.”
Another light bulb moment… This is one of those multi-colored, touch light bulb moments, so if you’re not into that type… sorry, charlie.
🙂 Was reading about shadow selves… how when we overreact about someone or something, it’s usually because it hits an emotion buried alive that still needs to be delt with. Debbie Ford explained how our internal chatter keeps us from emotional, social & spiritual growth… & this chatter comes from aspects of ourselves… like sub-personalities, that we don’t want to address. She recommended simply imagining our sub-personalities on a bus… & meeting each one & finding out what message & gift each one has. (ie -Even anger/agressiveness has the gift of getting things done despite obstacles).
I thought about where Jesus explained that the kingdom of God is within us (Luke 17:22)… & how that applies to Greek gods that are such a part of philosophy & religion, including the bible. I wonder if greek gods was a primitive method of teaching emotional intelligence… of understanding the various characters within the kingdom of God (within us).
Old-Timer wrote:As to the question of the post’s title, I think the Old Testament is based on the dominant religious perceptions of its time – which are not inconsistent at the most fundamental level with the Greek gods. The New Testament itself, didn’t do all that much to change it. Otoh, Christianity, as established in the first century AD and then by the Council of Nicea a couple hundred years later, was a radical departure from its Hebrew then Jewish origin. Mormonism, imo, is a fascinating combination of the two – and other religious traditions outside of that historical tradition.
I follow in step with your thoughts. The old testament reveals quite a bit of this . Just take the name El as in Elohim, Elshada, El is the father of Baal te predominate god of the OT. This is why we see Asherah the goddess beside the ark in the early temples repeatedly. It may sense that The queen of heaven as Jeremiah refers to her should with the King of heaven. It was the Yahwehist sect that began to evolve the hebrew nation into a monotheistic nation as they came to power essentially in the struggles of the northern kingdom and Judah.Quote:I’ve read that Christianity is based on Paganism (many gods).
This is NOT what paganism means. Originally “pagan” meant someone who lived in the countryside. The word later came to mean someone who was neither Christian, Muslim nor Jewish. I always get p’d off when I hear this New Clap Trap about “I’m a (neo-)pagan”. That’s like saying “I’m an infidel”. It’s not a religious tag, it’s actually an old insult.
Monotheism = One God.
Polytheism = Many Gods.
Henotheism = Many Gods, but only one is worshiped.
There’s actually no such religion as “paganism”, and never has been.
Quote:He pointed out to me how so many biblical words are Greek… including words like hell… which is from the Greek God, Hades.
“Hell” (in English) derives its name from the Norse goddess of the underworld. The Greek sometimes translates the Hebrew “Gehenna”, which is what Jesus uses sometimes, which is a place outside Jerusalem where rubbish got burnt; at other times, it translates the Hebrew “Sheol”, which was the spirit world.
Part of the reason for this is that many Jews already used Greek, and they had a translation of the Torah etc called the Septuagint. This is used extensively in the NT, and also as a base for the translation of Jewish terms.
Quote:Except it seems that it’s been reduced to just 2 polar opposites… God & Satan
That’s the influence of Zoroastrianism and Manicheaism. For another discussion.
SamBee wrote:Quote:I’ve read that Christianity is based on Paganism (many gods).
This is NOT what paganism means. Originally “pagan” meant someone who lived in the countryside. The word later came to mean someone who was neither Christian, Muslim nor Jewish. I always get p’d off when I hear this New Clap Trap about “I’m a (neo-)pagan”. That’s like saying “I’m an infidel”. It’s not a religious tag, it’s actually an old insult.
Although you are historically and etymologically correct, patience may be in order. The English language is evolving, and although I completely disagree with the premise of this thread, Featherina’s use of ‘pagan’ is somewhat valid. From the OED:OED definition of Pagan wrote:b. A follower of a pantheistic or nature-worshipping religion; esp. a neopagan.
Featherina used the term a bit improperly, only in the sense that the pantheistic implication of ‘pagan’ is a recent development, dating from 1927, and really doesn’t apply to either polytheism nor to the historical context of biblical henotheism.
As well, “Clap Trap” is improper usage on your part. the term is “claptrap”, meaning something, a cheap trick or the like, meant to elicit applause.
:clap: :clap: :clap: SamBee wrote:There’s actually no such religion as “paganism”, and never has been.
Both the OED and the neopagans see it a bit differently.Yeah, a better definition of “clap trap” would be: “Mormon chapel”. 
😈 I don’t agree with that use of Pagan at all, it’s like us self-describing as “heretics”. That people would use it in the other way, even with “neo” stuck on the front, shows how confused they really are.
Quote:Both the OED and the neopagans see it a bit differently.
Neopaganism is a complete fantasy based on modern speculation, cultural appropriation (theft e.g. from Native Americans, Celts, Australian Aborigines) and misrepresentation (e.g. all “tribal peoples” believe the same thing).
These folk seem to enjoy stealing from, misunderstanding and misrepresenting my native culture as well.
NB – nothing wrong with my use of claptrap:
Quote:claptrap noun a meaningless, insincere or pompous talk; b nonsense.
ETYMOLOGY: 18c.
Whoa, Cowboys! Maybe I posted this in the wrong section.
IMO, HIS-Story and “doctrine” are just fancy ways of saying BS that we accept as truth because it’s TRADITION!
I think the forest got lost because of the trees.
My point was that there is A LOT going on within us, as mentioned by Jesus (or whoever wrote about him)…
All kinds of feelings, which relate with greek gods…
IE:
Love, Desire
🙂 (Eros)Creative artistic expression (Apollo)
Anger
👿 (Ares)Wisdom (Athena)
Partier
Humor
😆 (Bauber)Death – spiritual/physical – even in life- shedding dead cells – (Hades)
Spouse/Parent/Childbirth (Hera)
Traveler (Hermes)
Oh Well…
I’ll try to post in less historical & doctrinal subforums.
Nah, it’s in the right section – and I absolutely LOVE the “Whoa, cowboys!” :clap: :clap: :clap: Featherina wrote:Whoa, Cowboys!
Maybe I posted this in the wrong section.
IMO, HIS-Story and “doctrine” are just fancy ways of saying BS that we accept as truth because it’s TRADITION!
I think the forest got lost because of the trees.
My point was that there is A LOT going on within us, as mentioned by Jesus (or whoever wrote about him)…
All kinds of feelings, which relate with greek gods…
IE:
Love, Desire
🙂 (Eros)Creative artistic expression (Apollo)
Anger
👿 (Ares)Wisdom (Athena)
Partier
Humor
😆 (Bauber)Death – spiritual/physical – even in life- shedding dead cells – (Hades)
Spouse/Parent/Childbirth (Hera)
Traveler (Hermes)
Oh Well…
I’ll try to post in less historical & doctrinal subforums.
You make perfect sense to me.
Featherina, I think an interesting point you make is the values people had and were searching for meaning in their lives, were attributed to the gods in Greek mythology (Zeus, Dionysus, etc) and different groups followed or worshiped certain gods based on what they personally valued (love, war, power, nature, etc).
The Jewish faith took these values, all of them, and attributed them to their one God. The God of the Old Testament was a war god, leading them to battle and requiring destruction of opposers. A jealous god, He requires devotion and no tolerance for other idols or worship, and requires sacrifice and covenant including circumcision from followers. He was a god with these humanly characteristics that the Greek gods also had, and in some ways, was flawed by these characteristics, like the Greek gods. For example, the story of Job is an interesting story of devotion and faithfulness to God despite hardships, but it is problematic to have such a god entering into a bet with the devil and interfering in mortal lives (Job’s children killed, allowing Job to have sickness and skin diseases, prosperity taken away and restored to teach a lesson, etc). In many ways, this is similar to the Greek gods and their sometimes petty involvement with mortals.
I believe Judaism was founded on monotheism, so to make the argument that the bible is based on Greek gods might be a stretch because the stories in the bible were supposedly handed down for generations verbally prior to the greek influence. However, they were only written down sometime around 600BCE (various books at various dates), so one could argue that when they finally were written down, the Greek influences were there…maybe similar to someone saying that when Joseph Smith wrote the book of mormon, the protestant influences were there, and can be seen influencing Smith’s teachings on God and His characteristics. Believers would argue the religion and truth was there before the creation of these other religions (Greek gods to Judiasm, Protestantism to Mormonism), but even Apologists recognize the influences crept into writings, as prophets can only understand and process things based on their point of view in the times they live.
It is an interesting point, Featherina. Especially since historians also state that many Jews were highly influenced and in favor of the Greek civilizations, their gymnasiums (exercise in the nude…who doesn’t like that!), their writing, their political strengths. And many Jews became accepting of the good things in Greek culture, and de-emphasized the laws and rules of Judiasm, especially those that lived in areas as a result of the Diaspora, and wanted to live in harmony with the cultures. It was these various things that concerned some of the devote Jews that returned to the Laws of Moses with great zeal, to try to hold on to their roots and their customs, and their religion. This was the background for Judah Maccabee (the Hammer) leading the Maccabean revolt as the military was imposing a unified religion for all society and wanting the Jewish temple to have the statue of Zeus inside and to have sacrifices to it. The first person “the Hammer” killed wasn’t a gentile…but a Jew who seemed to be ready to offer sacrifice to accommodate the laws of the land…which abhorred the devout Jews that were willing to die for their faith.
In fact, some historians, like Elias Bickerman, write a lot of the Jews in the Hellenistic Ages and the influence Greeks had on Judaism, and equally the respect which suggests Jews also had great respect and some influence on the Greeks, mostly after Alexander the Great.
Two interesting quotes, I found:
Quote:Bickerman tells of Jewish writers borrowing the Homeric style for biblical descriptions, along with Jewish translations of Greek texts that freely translates Zeus to God.
“Doubt: A History by Jennifer Hecht”
Quote:The biblical book, Ecclesiates (Greek word for the Hebrew Koheleth, meaning teacher), written between 250 and 200 BCE, is far closer in spirit to Greek Epicurian and Skeptic philosophies than to the God-intoxicated earlier writings of the Bible. “Judaism and Hellenism: The Encounter by Clare Goldfarb here:
http://kekrops.tripod.com/Hellenistic_Files/Judaism.html ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://kekrops.tripod.com/Hellenistic_Files/Judaism.html
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