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Thanks Jbelli. I took the liberty of editing your post and adding the quote feature you asked about. (Don’t worry, I didn’t take out anything you said.) When you are writing a post, there are some buttons just above where you type. You can see Bold, Italic, underline, and Quote:quote
. Just click those buttons and it will add in the code you need to do whatever you want.
I think that people who question the BoM don’t look at the Bible with the same critical eye. There are just as many questions concerning source documents for the Bible as there are for the Book of Mormon–there are no source documents either for ANY biblical book. While it’s true that there are old copies, if one were to find the Salamander letter in 1000 years, it would still be an ancient forgery. Just because something is old, doesn’t make it less of a forgery. Sometimes, I think we forget this fact. As I’ve said before, there are people who question the authenticity of all ancient characters, including Jesus. The key for the Bible over the Book of Mormon is that there are places we have found. But even those places have problems. For example, the city of Jericho has been found, but it doesn’t date to the time of Joshua. Nobody has ever found a shred of evidence that the Exodus ever happened. If it did, most scholars claim that the biblical numbers are grossly inflated. If we believe the biblical account of 700,000 to 1,100,000 Israelites, they would have left garbage, pottery, and artifacts we would still find today. Scholars can’t even agree on the path of the Exodus.
What I’m trying to say is that most biblical stories are seen as embellishments. Martin Luther said the Book of Esther had no basis in fact, and he removed it from his Bible. (Did you know the word “God” is never mentioned in the Book of Esther?) So, yes, while most scholars believe a person by the name of Jesus existed, there are plenty of scholars who view the miracles and sayings of Jesus as based on more myth than history. As we’ve said before, the key is the spiritual meaning we find in the scriptures.
Having said that, I always enjoy looking for Bible and BoM evidences. I was pretty excited to hear that the Tel Dan Stele in Syria seems to mention the biblical “House of David.” Most people claim David as a myth, and this non-biblical source seems to be the first piece of evidence that David may have actually lived. It is the oldest artifact referencing a Biblical character, dating from around 1100 BC. Of course, there are scholars who dispute the finding, but I think it’s pretty exciting to find these kinds of artifacts, and I think such artifacts may be found for the BoM as well. I have a post planned on Nephi’s harbor in Yemen that I think is compelling too, so perhaps you won’t completely shut the door on historicity. But if you do, the real value of the scriputures is spiritual, rather than historical anyway.
jbelli21 wrote:Joseph Smith = prophet = translates BOM = exactly what he said about it = accurate historical record of ppl’s spiritual and cultural experiences
That is the formula most of us worked with for a good period of our life. That’s fine. It provided a certain valuable and good experience.
My new formula for the BoM looks more like this to me, more of a reversing of the above algorithm:
My life is enhanced and I become something better that I enjoy = valuable wisdom = meaning was created through story, AKA the BoM came into existence in some manner, doesn’t really matter how = someone acted as a “prophet” = happens to be this interesting, quirky character named Joseph Smith.
Thanks Mormonheretic, haha that’s funny calling you that. I totally agree with you. I love the history of the bible. It’s all very interesting. I read “Who wrote the bible” and “The Bible with Sources Revealed” by Richard Freidman about a year ago and they read like a mystery novel as it uncovers the sources of the documentary hypothesis. But it’s just interesting to me, not so much uplifting like the meanings held within the scriptures. Taking a step back it is somewhat inspiring that we have the scriptures at all, I once read an article about different sects of judaism that miticulously preserved bits and pieces of the OT, so yeah the fact that we even have the bible is a miracle and the lengths that Joseph Smith went to in giving us the BOM can be just as inspiring but to me the most inspiring thing is what is contained within those texts. To clarify my post I do believe in alot of the historicity of the NT, such as Jesus, but like I said I do have doubts. I have all kinds of doubts but I really don’t think that doubt is contrary to faith or belief. I feel as though I have more doubts now than I ever have in my life but at the same time I also feel that my faith is as strong as it’s ever been. Most of those doubts are concerning historical issues. But again I love reading history, it’s very entertaining to me just not in the same way as the spiritual aspects are. I admit to being a little disappointed in Gen Conf when a talk was focused on the woman taken in adultery. Most Biblical scholars agree that story is apocryphal and was added late. OTOH, I really like the story and the lesson of the story. I was just disappointed that it was portrayed as fact, as if we could go back in time with a video camera and catch it on tape. jbelli21 wrote:I have all kinds of doubts but I really don’t think that doubt is contrary to faith or belief. I feel as though I have more doubts now than I ever have in my life but at the same time I also feel that my faith is as strong as it’s ever been. Most of those doubts are concerning historical issues. But again I love reading history, it’s very entertaining to me just not in the same way as the spiritual aspects are.
This resonates with me. I hope you feel that this is a safe place to question and “think out loud” about these topics. I know I do. I believe questioning is our birthright. I believe that we are born to learn and that can only happen when we question what we “know.” It is seriously the most spiritual experience of my life.
I do have Renee Girard on my “to read” list, which is very long. LOL Have you tried reading any work by Elaine Pagels? She writes about gnostic interpretations of the NT which I found highly beneficial to my spiritual journey. They are easy reads, too. Good stuff.
“just me”, i started reading the secret gospel of thomas by pagels on my mission and it was really good but i was borrowing it from a member and i got transfered so i never got to finish it. i was just looking on amazon, what’s a good pagels book to start with? if you do start reading rene girard start with violence unveiled by gil bailie, it’s incredible. I love The Gnostic Paul. Now I can’t remember if I read The Gnostic Gospels or not. LOL I think I did and loved it. The book she cowrote on Judas was just okay for me. I’d love to read her books Adam, Eve and the Serpent and The Origin of Satan, too. So many books, so little time! I’ve got The Scapegoat on my wishlist. I’ll be sure to add Violence Unveiled and start with that one. Thanks!
Oh, most of Elaine Pagels books are available on half.com for around $1 plus s/h.
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