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OK…. 😳 How do I say this, ummm, uhhhh, errrr…
😳 😳 I’ll just say it!
How do you talk to your kids about the “facts of life” when you don’t agree with some/most/all of the ways the church deals with it?
We decided to have the first of what’s going to be many discussions on this topic with our ten-year-old last week. We kept it strictly biological, no value judgments, no “this is bad” or “naughty”, just “this is what it is, this is how it’s done, and this is the physical outcome”.
That was definitely more than enough for the moment.
I’ve become very “open-minded” (I know, shocking) in my thinking on boundaries for sexual exploration for growing young people. I imagine my current thinking is probably as much a backlash against my parents methods but I’m very interested in what everyone’s thoughts, experiences, beliefs, do’s, don’t’s, don’t even think about it’s, etc.
Go ahead, someone say it, “I knew swim was gonna go here
🙄 “.Good morning, Just so you know, my mother died when I was ten. I think I was about 9 when I ran home from elementary school and told my Mom that my teacher had shown us a picture of the internals organs of a human being. I was ecstatic!
My Mom quickly retorted, “did they show you the uterus, do you know where the uterus is?” They hadn’t told me about the uterus. Mom told me that that was one of the MOST important parts of the body because it was the organ that carries babies. Wow, just think about it, the uterus is the cradle of life for all those born.
Ok, by the time I was 23, I was made Team Leader of an OB-GYN clinic. Later in life, I worked for Utah State Department of Health doing laboratory testing as part of a Federal Grant for Woman’s Reproductive Health. I’m so glad that my own mother provided me with such a good education before she died (she was actually a child psychologist – Master’s Degree)
I am so glad that my mother was comfortable with discussing human sexuality. Over the years, I have counseled pregnant teens and women with sexually transmitted diseases – I have always felt completely comfortable.
Lastly, I have recently begun to assist young people with various problems. As all of you know, methamphetamine use by an expectant mother can and does interfere with androgen imprinting (the fetal developmental process that gives us gender orientation). Some young survivors of fetal methamphetamine suffer from attention deficit disorder, behavioral disorders, neurological damage and even homosexuality. Even one dose of methamphetamine prenatally can have devastating effects on an unborn child.
Well, I’m rambling on, but I have started to counsel young survivors of fetal methamphetamine exposure. Many have been raised in foster care. One young man said he had had four foster parents before he was age 11 and was struggling with same sex attraction and behavior disorders. He as homeless, having been kicked out of his parents home for being gay. Understanding human sexuality has really helped me to understand how the human mind works. I see kids who have been victims of incest who don’t know how to relate to others in non-sexual ways. I actually feel as comfortable helping these kids as my mother felt when she was speaking to me. Being open and honest about human sexuality was one of the greatest blessing my mother ever gave to me and I hope to give that compassion and understanding to others.
I am very open about it with my kids – and I tell them WHY I believe what I believe. That, to me, is more important than listing do’s and don’ts – explaining why I hold the values I hold. A simple example of something about which I feel passionately and explain to my children very openly:
I don’t want any of my children to drink, but I approach it slightly differently with my girls. I tell them directly that they don’t know their own limits until they’ve passed them, and that if a girl passes her limit publicly, she is at the mercy of the boy(s) who are with her. Boys sometimes do horrible things when they are drunk, but girls often have horrible things done to them. It is NOT a “scare tactic” in my eyes, and I tell them without pulling any punches that public drinking is one of the leading causes of rape. It’s just not worth the risk in my mind, so I tell them I associate the Word of Wisdom in that way with the Law of Chastity – especially for girls.
I don’t want to derail this post into a discussion of the WofW, but it is a good example of sharing the “why” when I talk with them.
I agree that being open and honest is always best. Casual conversations where children can ask questions and set the pace are always good. I’m not sure what you mean by “I’ve become very “open-minded” (I know, shocking) in my thinking on boundaries for sexual exploration for growing young people.”
I think regardless of where we “draw the line” for our children we will all have to frankly discuss the dangers of sexual contact as a young person and as a non-commited person. My friend got HPV her very first experience and it has had long term effects on her health. I think we have to be honest with ourselves and our children. More than half the population have an STD. One in four teens contract an STD each year. That is information I want my youth to know because it is a scary, unavoidable fact.
Above all, they need to understand and know that sex is about more than physical pleasure. There are mental and emotional components whether we/they want there to be or not.
Swimordie, I am glad you brought up this good and important topic. My parent’s generation (WWII) rarely talked about this. Here’s how bad it was. My poor mom had heard about sex as a young woman but was not sure what it really was. She went out on a date with a guy who french kissed her and she thought that must be it. She went home that night and cried her eyes out that she had lost her virginity. My dad who only had 5 brothers growing up, knew nothing about girls and menstral cycles. So, the first time he was with my mom, she apparently had her period and my poor dad thought he had hurt her. He rushed her to the emergency room (my mom too scared to say anything) and the interns laughed their head off at my dad that he knew nothing about womens periods.
Because my mom was so mentally ill after surviving WWII in Germany, I could never talk to my mom about these kind of subjects. Fortunately, my father was a great mom and dad both, and my sister and I could talk to him about anything. I lived in Covina California when I was in 5th grade and they showed a movie to us boys and girls together about our bodies and some sex ed. Everyone just giggled and looked uncomfortable. I really think they should have boys and girls watch these type of movies separately. Anyway, I was 10 and a half when I got my first period and it kind of frightened me. I went to my dad about it and what a gem he was. He lovingly told me that this is a wonderful thing that has happened and means that I can be a mother someday. He made me feel so good about myself and then took me out for ice cream and a burger to celebrate. These are memories you never forget and have a lasting impact.
Then when I was 13 and my sister was 11 my dad asked us if we knew what sex was. This is while my dad was driving on the LA freeway with us. My sister immeadiately said ‘Yes’ which surprised me and I said ‘No.” My dad ask us what we did know and then explained what it was to us. I was in shock and said, “Well, I am never getting married if you have to do that.” My dad just laughed and said, “Don’t worry, you will change your mind someday. At this time, my dad often took my sister and I to the drive-in, which we loved. But, I will never forget one time when the theatre showed a pre-movie documentary in black and white about syphllis and gonorrehea and other sexually transmitted diseases. It was very graphic and the diseases looked awful. I guess because so many teens came to drive-ins to make out, this was preventive measure in California at the time. Besides being taught at church that sexual sin was the sin next to murder, this movie, and not wanting to get pregnant, scared me enough to behave.
Unfortunately, it was only 5 years ago that I found out why my sister already knew about sex so early. My oldest brother had died, who was 9 years older, and my sister finally told me he had sexually abused her from the age of 5-16. That was such horrible news to me as this was my favorite brother growing up. It took me some time to turn this all over to God.
When I was pregnant with my last child (the gay one), my oldest son was 9 and my daughter was 7. I had this wonderful pictorial book on how a baby grows in the womb. So, I was explaining to my daughter each of the photos which showed eggs and sperm etc. She was very interested and asked alot of questions. She finally wanted to know how the sperm got into the mommy. So, I explained sex to her. Well, my oldest son overheard me telling his sister this and comes running in yelling, “Mom, don’t tell my sister all this…she’ll blab it all over the neighborhood.” So then I had to explain to her the sacredness of this intimacy so she would understand that this is from Heavenly Father and only meant to be when you get married. It is interesting, and a problem when raised in the church, because all your life growing up you are told “No, you should not do this. It is serious sin, and to be clean and chaste.” Suddenly, you get married and your are supposed to turn on a ‘switch’ in your head and now its a good thing and healthy and moral. I can’t tell you how many new brides have come to me crying and scared wanting to know about men and even seeing a guy naked for the first time.
I am sorry but there is one thing that I think the church is wrong on and that is on the subject of masturbation. The guilt and need to lie even, has been horrible for the youth and members. So, the following links is where my husband refferred our sons to on this subject and it was such a relief for them. I think this is a much more healthy approach:
http://boysunderattack.com/masturbation.html http://www.i4m.com/think/sexuality/masturbation_help.htm just me wrote:I agree that being open and honest is always best. Casual conversations where children can ask questions and set the pace are always good.
I’m not sure what you mean by “I’ve become very “open-minded” (I know, shocking) in my thinking on boundaries for sexual exploration for growing young people.”
I think regardless of where we “draw the line” for our children we will all have to frankly discuss the dangers of sexual contact as a young person and as a non-commited person. My friend got HPV her very first experience and it has had long term effects on her health. I think we have to be honest with ourselves and our children. More than half the population have an STD. One in four teens contract an STD each year. That is information I want my youth to know because it is a scary, unavoidable fact.
Above all, they need to understand and know that sex is about more than physical pleasure. There are mental and emotional components whether we/they want there to be or not.
I agree justme….my gay son got one of the worst cases of oral gonorrehea that our doctor had seen in 20 years from his first sexual experience. In fact, his throat was so swollen shut, our doctor said he could have died. It scared all of us to death and yet he still does not practice safe sex that my Danish doctor friend has tried to teach him.
swimordie wrote:How do you talk to your kids about the “facts of life” when you don’t agree with some/most/all of the ways the church deals with it?
Treat it just as you said what it is “facts of life”. No different than knowing how to manage money responsibly or seeking education and careers to live a happy life or working keeping your mind clean and healthy. They are simply things about life that we all deal with and I try to talk to my kids about it like that, just like everything else. I don’t make it more scary, I don’t make it something to avoid talking about. Treat it like it is, a fact of life, and I have found my kids are pretty comfortable talking openly to me about it. I didn’t really have this with my parents, but want my kids to not feel embarrassed about it or to think its “dirty” or something…it is just life basics.My oldest son is now 10…I have to bring it up with him casually, cause he’s pretty embarrassed, but when I do, I quickly see he is obviously thinking about things naturally, and hearing about it at school…so best he feels he can talk openly in the safety of our home about it.
I don’t feel the church is responsbile to set the agenda of how I talk to my kids about it. They set the guidelines of the teachings and abstinence, and so on…but it is my responsibility to know what my kids need to be taught, and how I should teach them.
I like Ray’s points as well. The fact of it is that it is different for boys and girls (obviously), so it should be approached differently too. That’s just reality.
I think we have to be open enough to not instill shame and repression, but to help kids make good choices that will lead to their happiness. I don’t believe they will be happy succumbing to pressures or making decisions while impaired by a desire to be accepted, alcohol, drugs or confusion and embarrassment about the whole thing. We recently had a talk with our son about how openly he was discussing private bodily things in front of his female friends. It was more of a social consideration than a sexual one. I think some of his behavior was inspired by watching Flight of the Conchords. So, on the one hand, we’ve done a good job about keeping the shame factor very low. On the other hand, a little discretion would not go amiss either.
The other thought I keep having is that genetic predispositions persist from generation to generation. The things we struggled with will manifest in our kids, and our parents often experienced these same things. That’s something ingenious about genetics, to me, that we are able to anticipate and handle our kids’ issues from personal experience. Of course, I get a little confused about how to define boundaries in this technological age, but that’s the same as the trials of my parents who were familiar with teenage drinking, but knew nothing about drugs. There’s always something new, but the same genetic predisposition facing it.
Amazing insight everyone! Great advice and very in-line with some of my preliminary thinking. You all should write a book about this! @just me:
I guess I was insinuating that I don’t feel like certain sexual behaviors should be “off-limits”, most obviously, masturbation. My siblings and I grew up with so much shame around anything sexual, (even while we’d catch my dad with p0rn) that we’re still recovering as 30-something adults (therapy, SAA, etc.) and exploratory masturbation played a huge role in that for a couple of my siblings.
And, I couldn’t agree more with hawkgrrls’ ideas on the genetic factor: all of my dad’s family and us are extremely, umm, what’s the word
😳 “preoccupied with sex”.Like I said in my post, my thinking trends right now may be a little too far on the “open-ness”, “free-love” vein, and, obviously, I won’t be going that route when talking to my kids. I guess I’m just scared because I’ve never been personally involved in or known of a situation where I think parental sex ed is done right. And, I don’t think it’s done right at church with teenagers, as some examples recently here on this board attest.
And, I know that every kid is different and requires a slightly different methodology, and I know that’s true for my boys; they couldn’t be more different.
Which, of course, is why I asked the distinguished members of this board for help. Or should it be: HELP!!!??!!
😳 😳 😮 
Lastly, is there a way to “fuse” hard-line church teaching on this subject with the more “realistic” teaching that I’m currently leaning towards?
And, I’m not sure if it’s appropriate, but I’d like specifics because this is one area where staying general loses the message, imho.
Swim, I think the best way to try to bridge the gap (or “fuse” the hardline church teachings) with your personal beliefs is to focus on the spirit of each teaching and law. There may be a specific thing about sex the church teaches is wrong…Be able to answer why that is? What does it mean? What is the danger Heavenly Father is teaching us to avoid?
In my opinion, church standards are set to avoid continuing down a destructive path, so the line is drawn in a safe zone. Crossing that arbitrary line warns you that you could be heading for danger if the direction is not corrected, but the actual crossing of that line isn’t a terrible thing that means you’re a bad person or you are now in a bad place (in most cases, however there are some absolute lines you can’t cross…but my experience is people don’t struggle with those, they struggle with the smaller issues that are more gray areas). I think it is more a red flag to point out what direction things are heading towards, and to be careful to not get caught on a slippery slope that leads to destructive, addictive, and serious sinful behavior, and remind yourself to be humble that you need to be able to change directions and have the will to stop, and that power comes through experience and practice, so the little rules can help you have practice.
bridget_night wrote:I am sorry but there is one thing that I think the church is wrong on and that is on the subject of masturbation. The guilt and need to lie even, has been horrible for the youth and members. So, the following links is where my husband refferred our sons to on this subject and it was such a relief for them. I think this is a much more healthy approach:
http://boysunderattack.com/masturbation.html http://www.i4m.com/think/sexuality/masturbation_help.htm Wow…somebody that agrees with me!
I agree that this is an area that is bound to change in the future…albeit WAY in the future, I’m sure! I could tell so many stories here — about my personal experiences, experiences as a bishop, as a counselor, as a father…but suffice it to say, “I’ve been around!” (I’m sure we all have…)
To me, it seems this all goes back to the “sin” of sex, in any way, outside of marriage. On the surface, it makes sense to concur, but please consider this possibility. I’ve read a few books that talk about how around the time of the council of Nicea with Constantine presiding, that a way that was created to control the people was to villify sexuality. One thing they did was alter (chose) the “gospels” to villify Mary Magdalene as a harlot. The other gnostic gospels don’t even mention that about her. This evolved into a scorning of sexuality…something that had been in a few other dogmatic religions, but not universal. As the second most powerful urge of human beings — second only to physical survival with food and water — it was seen as a way to create guilt, then necessitating confession to the church, and the obligatory penitance. The church became very powerful.
IOW, most protestant, and restored Christian religions have adapted and evolved these accepted processes from Catholocism, and it continues to be viewed as sin. Non-Christian cultures, where sexuality is viewed as a natural, healthy process, have a very different view of sex. It is much less secretive and embarassing.
It is natural to masturbate…particularly in the teenage and pre-marriage years as a healthy way to release. Doing so allows a person to think much more logically about romantic relationships, rather than with the sexual tension that clouds good judgment. Pre-marital (safe) sex is also natural between two attracted people, and allows them necessary romantic time together to know whether they will be a good match in a long-term marriage.
But how do “we” transition to this sort of healthy approach to sexuality, when we are so steeped in the Constantinian, guilt induced attitude about sex? Probably the same way we come to accept homosexuality; let good science teach us what is real, and what is institutionally created to control the masses.
Yes, it will take time, but I think love will prevail. Eventually.
As I said before, my experience seems to have been different. But I appreciate the opportunity to learn from you, Rix and bn. I know it will make me a better dad and gpa. I think there is value in teaching kids how to control appetites and place limits on what they do. I have not gotten to the point where I believe that masturbation is healthy for a person, or encourage my kids to explore…but I think the message is that sex is not a sin or something to feel guilty being curious about, it is a God-given part of this life and critical to our bodies and perpetuating life. Because it is so critical, it also needs to be protected, and used wisely, just like using a car is important but involves mature judgement to keep it safe from hurting oneself or others. When kids are mature, they can deal with these issues, until they are mature enough to understand their hormones and what things lead to, they need limits and guidelines to help them until they figure it out. Once they are adults, it is up to them to decide how to handle the subject and their standing with God. It may be a natural thing, but I don’t view it as a healthy thing, any more than eating is a natural thing or sleeping is a natural thing, but uncontrolled leads to unhealthy eating or sleeping habits. I want my kids to not fear sex, but develop healthy habits, which requires knowledge and self-discipline. I think there is a place for guilt in life, as a consequence for going against what we know is wrong. I don’t think manipulation through guilt is an effective long-term teaching tool.
Rix, I think I disagree about the value of uncommitted or “trial” sex as a norm. There are sociological and biological factors that put women at a disadvantage in such a system. A few differences come to mind: – females can get pregnant. Maternity is relatively easy to prove, unlike paternity. Unplanned pregnancy may entangle fathers, but it clearly entangles unwed mothers in a more direct manner.
– females who engage in premarital sex become more emotionally committed to the relationship, while the pre-commitment sexual relationship allows males to divest and further delay commitment. Obviously there are exceptions, but females biologically seek a capable and committed provider while males seek to father offspring among as many desirable (healthy) females as possible. A female may view the sexual relationship as a way to bind the male to her, but the male may view it as a good substitute for commitment.
– female sexual response is often involuntary, leaving them vulnerable to sexual manipulation (or one might say it has evolved thus to compensate for sexual violence committed on females throughout time).
Those are just a few reasons I think that pre-committed sex is not a good societal norm. Repression, shame and guilt are not good alternatives either, in my book. But they certainly aren’t the only reasons to stay celibate outside of a committed relationship.
Heber13 wrote:I think there is value in teaching kids how to control appetites and place limits on what they do. I have not gotten to the point where I believe that masturbation is healthy for a person, or encourage my kids to explore…but I think the message is that sex is not a sin or something to feel guilty being curious about, it is a God-given part of this life and critical to our bodies and perpetuating life. Because it is so critical, it also needs to be protected, and used wisely, just like using a car is important but involves mature judgement to keep it safe from hurting oneself or others. When kids are mature, they can deal with these issues, until they are mature enough to understand their hormones and what things lead to, they need limits and guidelines to help them until they figure it out. Once they are adults, it is up to them to decide how to handle the subject and their standing with God.
It may be a natural thing, but I don’t view it as a healthy thing, any more than eating is a natural thing or sleeping is a natural thing, but uncontrolled leads to unhealthy eating or sleeping habits. I want my kids to not fear sex, but develop healthy habits, which requires knowledge and self-discipline. I think there is a place for guilt in life, as a consequence for going against what we know is wrong. I don’t think manipulation through guilt is an effective long-term teaching tool.
This is where I land as well. I don’t think we should encourage the guilt and shame that has come out of previous generations. But I don’t think that flipping entire the opposite direction is the answer either. I don’t think either extreme is how Father in Heaven wants us to understand and govern the stewardship of the human body. There is no doubt in my mind that certain sexual expressions of children are absolutely innocent. It is absolutely normal to explore ones body and get to know what it does. But I think we can teach how our bodies work in their various developing stages AND self control at the very same time. There is no need in this process for shame and guilt. I think we can teach our kids how to respond to sexual feelings. thoughts and impulses. There are times to say yes to those and times to say no. I think developing one pattern of self control with others and another of indulgence when we are alone with ourselves seems to create a great inconguency in my mind.
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