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When thinking about these subjects, I often think of the scripture “Bridle your passions, that ye may be filled with love.” What do you all think of that? Rix, what is your take.
I agree Poppy, I also think of “moderation in all things.” I don’t think it’s healthy (physically, emotionally, or spiritually) for mere humans to try to fast for forty days and nights – for example.
On the equal but opposite hand I don’t think it’s healthy to eat like it’s Thanksgiving every day either.
I appreciate the many responses here, and I think It helps to dialogue about this. Any discussion about sex elicits strong feelings from most of us. Obviously, it’s important to approach it with what works for each of us individually. I would like to relate an experience I had about 10 years ago as I went on a “Dr’s without Borders” humanitarian mission to a remote village in the Amazon jungle. This was a village where most the people had never seen others outside their area; they were completely isolated. They had recently had an increase in deaths from TB and malaria, so they had requested help. When a Dr. friend asked me to go, I was excited to help. It was quite an experience…for many reasons. Yes, we vaccinated them to “help,” but it was extremely educational to us to observe how a group of people have evolved over the millennia to establish cultural norms without any outside influence.
They were extremely superstitious. They considered us “Gods” (our mostly white skin fascinated them, I guess); they considered disease as God’s way of punishing them. Same issue with weather — God was expressing his emotions.
Anyway, to the point, they were a village family. All women of age bore children and nursed. Whenever a child needed nursing, one woman nursed them. They did have romantic relationships, but typically short term. Ownership, in any sense of the word was considered evil. When one person attempted to “keep” something (or someone), it was considered selfish. IOW, everything and everybody belonged to the village.
As it relates to sex, (this will gross many out…warning!), they were taught the mechanics by losing their virginity to their opposite sex parent. They considered it a very intimate, bonding experience. It wasn’t a “many times” sort of thing, just to teach the process (they did use an interesting condom…didn’t look too comfortable!). They did not appear “abused, depressed, etc.” It was what they knew, and it seemed to be normal to them.
My point is, we are taught what is good and evil by our parents and ancestors; they by theirs. We are taught what is appropriate and what should cause us guilt, shame, jealousy…and every other emotion. Yes, there are physical issues and diseases we must learn about. Today we don’t have much polio, measles, etc. because of medical science. There was a time that most people believed that disease was a curse from the Gods. Hopefully we don’t believe that today.
I think many (most) of our feelings about sexual behavior comes from what we’ve been taught…some reasonable, some not. I would just suggest we look at where our biases come from, and be open-minded about judgment. Just something to think about….
Poppyseed wrote:When thinking about these subjects, I often think of the scripture “Bridle your passions, that ye may be filled with love.”
What do you all think of that? Rix, what is your take.
I think it is a great scripture! There is much to be learned from controlling urges we all have…it gives us strength. I think it’s important to control our passion for fatty foods when we’re overweight.
I tend to not apply it to what I consider healthy sexual behavior, however. I rarely try to withold sex from my wife when she wants it. I think it brings us close. When I’ve been hiking and I’m out of water, I definitely get a good long drink when I find some crisp cold water!
I know that wasn’t what you wanted…but the point I would make is that we consider “healthy sex” according to what we’ve been taught (as I said in my last post). I certainly see many more positives to a teenage boy masturbating occasionally in the privacy of his room, to the bizarre sexual dysfunctions, porn addictions, and poor choices of future spouses made when he has sexual tension clouding his judgment. And the guilt instilled is a lifelong battle to heal from. Been there, done that, many people hurt, wasn’t good.
I know I’m probably mostly alone here in my opinion…and that’s okay. I appreciate you tolerating listening to my weird philosophies. Really!
This may not be a surprise, but I’m right with you, Rix. As an example, I don’t know how to tell my boys to not masturbate. Where do you draw the line? If you set limits somehow, then the potential shame, even if it’s self-imposed, can do long-term damage to emotional and sexual function as an adult.
Also, I understand the societal norms and, unfortunately, they perpetuate these kinds of problems. For example, there is enormous pressure for parents to not have their child say anything that could be even remotely sexual in nature. I know that often, children who are disposed to talk about sexual things may, in fact, be experiencing inappropriate sexual things. But what of the kids who are just saying shocking things because they know they can get a reaction, often not even knowing what in the world they’re saying.
My point is many feelings towards sexuality and kids are based in societal “taboo”, some of which may be beneficial to the community, some of which are certainly a net negative to the individual.
Obviously, this is why I started this thread. I definitely understand the idea of limits and boundaries and learning self-control. But at what expense? And where do you draw the line?
Since Rix opened up the specific nature of some sexual practices, I’d love to hear reasons why some of you counseled your children the way you did and how you feel that worked out. And if you’d do anything different.
hawkgrrrl wrote:Rix, I think I disagree about the value of uncommitted or “trial” sex as a norm. There are sociological and biological factors that put women at a disadvantage in such a system. A few differences come to mind:
– females can get pregnant. Maternity is relatively easy to prove, unlike paternity. Unplanned pregnancy may entangle fathers, but it clearly entangles unwed mothers in a more direct manner.
– females who engage in premarital sex become more emotionally committed to the relationship, while the pre-commitment sexual relationship allows males to divest and further delay commitment. Obviously there are exceptions, but females biologically seek a capable and committed provider while males seek to father offspring among as many desirable (healthy) females as possible. A female may view the sexual relationship as a way to bind the male to her, but the male may view it as a good substitute for commitment.
– female sexual response is often involuntary, leaving them vulnerable to sexual manipulation (or one might say it has evolved thus to compensate for sexual violence committed on females throughout time).
Those are just a few reasons I think that pre-committed sex is not a good societal norm. Repression, shame and guilt are not good alternatives either, in my book. But they certainly aren’t the only reasons to stay celibate outside of a committed relationship.
Hawkgrrrl, I didn’t want to ignore this…and I really do appreciate the female perspective (obviously very important!). First, I came home from work tonight and talked about this with my wife, and I think she agrees more with you than me! She made the comment, “it’s amazing men and women ever get together with our differences!” But I hope she still loves me anyway…
To an extent, I think some of what you said has some learning behind it. IOW, like my other posts here, the thinking has been molded by cultural teachings. BUT, I’m the first to admit that I’ll never be able to totally understand women…being male and all! I know about the “oxytocin” bonding hormone…something I guess I’ll never understand, huh?!
I have known quite a few European women that grew up without religion. Their approach to sex was very much like what we talk here about men. I don’t think there is as much “casual” sex as might be expected…it seems there is usually a degree of commitment in most cases (obviously plenty of exceptions…). But it seems the results are quite positive — very few unwanted pregnancies, low STD rate, lower divorce rates, lower rate of depression, etc.
But maybe that’s all because they take 2 hour lunches everyday and two months of holiday each year?! Maybe we’d all have better relationships if we took so much time off work!
😆 Quote:I have known quite a few European women that grew up without religion. Their approach to sex was very much like what we talk here about men.
There are certainly women who play against the types I’ve delineated, but I believe it has more to do with personality than religious background. But if women are put in a sociological environment in which they have to play against type in order to compete for the best males, that puts them at a disadvantage. It aligns with the males’ strategy, but disadvantages the females.
Quote:I don’t think there is as much “casual” sex as might be expected…it seems there is usually a degree of commitment in most cases (obviously plenty of exceptions…). But it seems the results are quite positive — very few unwanted pregnancies, low STD rate, lower divorce rates, lower rate of depression, etc.
That’s mainly because of the societal advances in the last 30 years: easy access to reliable sexual protection, more education, better support systems, and better female health care. Society has a much healthier attitude toward female sexuality since the 1970s than prior to that time. This is true in wealthier societies, but of course it is absolutely not true in 3rd world countries where many women still suffer grave social injustices and sexual horrors.
The differences between men and women that I outlined are based on biological tendencies throughout the animal kingdom, including humans. Females’ biology leads them, in most species, to seek a male who can provide protection for her while she incubates their offspring and then help her to protect that offspring by providing for them physically while she recovers. So, females entrapping males into commitment is what they are wired to do. Males, OTOH (totally different model), want to impregnate as many females as are healthy (characteristics that entice males tend to indicate fertility) to 1) expand the gene pool through procreation with a variety of partners, and 2) promulgate the species through multiple baby mamas (one female is only capable of being pregnant every 9 months, after all, and humans generally don’t have a litter of babies).
You guys really think I should tell my ten-year-old all of this??? 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 jk
I actually love the discussion so keep it up. I’ll just keep asking questions until people start answering them.
😈 Five of the posts on my personal blog in the last year have been about the Law of Chastity from various angles. Rather than trying to excerpt from them, I am going to be lazy and provide a category link for all five posts. Anyone who is interested can read them: swimordie wrote:You guys really think I should tell my ten-year-old all of this???
😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆
Only after they’re asleep….
hawkgrrrl wrote:Quote:I have known quite a few European women that grew up without religion. Their approach to sex was very much like what we talk here about men.
There are certainly women who play against the types I’ve delineated, but I believe it has more to do with personality than religious background. But if women are put in a sociological environment in which they have to play against type in order to compete for the best males, that puts them at a disadvantage. It aligns with the males’ strategy, but disadvantages the females.
Quote:I don’t think there is as much “casual” sex as might be expected…it seems there is usually a degree of commitment in most cases (obviously plenty of exceptions…). But it seems the results are quite positive — very few unwanted pregnancies, low STD rate, lower divorce rates, lower rate of depression, etc.
That’s mainly because of the societal advances in the last 30 years: easy access to reliable sexual protection, more education, better support systems, and better female health care. Society has a much healthier attitude toward female sexuality since the 1970s than prior to that time. This is true in wealthier societies, but of course it is absolutely not true in 3rd world countries where many women still suffer grave social injustices and sexual horrors.
Thanks for the response! No doubt, sexuality is much safer in the advanced societies, for both genders. Why…I think to an extent the jury may still be out. But I think your points are well made.
Again, I will argue two points that I know are not generally accepted in most religions. One, “de-criminalizing” masturbation has more positive results than criminalizing it.
Two, I believe (safe) sex between two committed people before marriage is a helpful step in allowing better judgment of compatibility of the couple before a family is started. I’ve seen too many hurt and broken families where this step would have prevented the agony of many. Of course I speak mainly from a male perspective, but so many young LDS “kids” get married so soon after missions, under the guise of “inspiration,” where the real inspiration is the wrong head! (can I say that????)
Of course, only my opinion….
swimordie wrote:This may not be a surprise, but I’m right with you, Rix.
As an example, I don’t know how to tell my boys to not masturbate. Where do you draw the line? If you set limits somehow, then the potential shame, even if it’s self-imposed, can do long-term damage to emotional and sexual function as an adult.
Also, I understand the societal norms and, unfortunately, they perpetuate these kinds of problems. For example, there is enormous pressure for parents to not have their child say anything that could be even remotely sexual in nature. I know that often, children who are disposed to talk about sexual things may, in fact, be experiencing inappropriate sexual things. But what of the kids who are just saying shocking things because they know they can get a reaction, often not even knowing what in the world they’re saying.
My point is many feelings towards sexuality and kids are based in societal “taboo”, some of which may be beneficial to the community, some of which are certainly a net negative to the individual.
Obviously, this is why I started this thread. I definitely understand the idea of limits and boundaries and learning self-control. But at what expense? And where do you draw the line?
Since Rix opened up the specific nature of some sexual practices, I’d love to hear reasons why some of you counseled your children the way you did and how you feel that worked out. And if you’d do anything different.
Yeah…..I can’t see that there is any value in shaming normal sexual behavior, feelings or processes. I guess I believe though that there are ways to teach conservative sexual boundaries without all that. In my house, it was always ok to talk about sex or to ask a question….not that I always wanted to even ask. I try to open the door for my kids too and I see that my kids are uncomfortable already. I don’t want that so I try to take the uncomfortableness out of it and tell the truth as I temper it by how and where and when we discuss things. But I don’t want them to adopt popular notions about sexual practice that I don’t approve of either or not have the sexually protective skills to handle a very sexually oriented pop culture.
With regards to the mbing practice……its gonna happen. And its normal. I think for me is about directing my boys away from it and on to other ways of seeing and dealing with the human body and all its feelings.
Poppyseed wrote:But I don’t want them to adopt popular notions about sexual practice that I don’t approve of either or not have the sexually protective skills to handle a very sexually oriented pop culture.
Do you mean teaching them safe-sex practices? Or how to avoid sexually-oriented material?
Poppyseed wrote:
With regards to the mbing practice……its gonna happen. And its normal. I think for me is about directing my boys away from it and on to other ways of seeing and dealing with the human body and all its feelings.Are you implying that masturbation, ultimately, should be avoided in all cases throughout life as the ideal?
I’m taking from your comment (which I really like) about directing “away from” and changing for myself to directing “beyond”. Meaning, the sexual function of masturbation may be a continuing factor but to discover the emotional components of sexual practice with another person within appropriate boundaries as being the ultimate ideal.
Quote:Do you mean teaching them safe-sex practices? Or how to avoid sexually-oriented material?
In my mind, if I am at the point of teaching safe sex practices, then I haven’t done my job. Well, let me temper that by saying that I think there is a time and place for that discussion too. This is certainly part of the giving my kids the big picture.
Yes on the material/content thing but that also includes what to do when unwanted thoughts get stuck in the mind and how to lovingly see yourself when you “want” to do it again. I think proper attitudes about sex and girls are huge. I don’t want my boys to see women as objects or think that getting the “need’ met is a right etc etc…. and I don’t want my girls see that their value only lies in being sexual enticements or that sex = love, cause lets tell truth, it often does not. I could keep going here……
The way I approach it is like this: It’s about how you see it, then its about how you decide what to do with all of it. I think there is lots of balance and love and morality and control that can be taught here without all the yucky of 1955 or the looseness of 1967.
Quote:Are you implying that masturbation, ultimately, should be avoided in all cases throughout life as the ideal?
Yes, I am. I think this is the goal as the practice does nothing to serve ones spirit. There are other paradigms that are more character driven than indulgence. “In all cases” is a rather black and white view. I am more comfortable with the term “goal” or “ideal” or “let’s find a better way” even. It’s a lot like hang nails. Everyone gets them, but do we bite them off and ruin the look/health of our hands? Do we shame ourselves cause we didn’t have the proper clippers one day? No. We buy some clippers and get a manacure and get on with things.
Quote:I’m taking from your comment (which I really like) about directing “away from” and changing for myself to directing “beyond”. Meaning, the sexual function of masturbation may be a continuing factor but to discover the emotional components of sexual practice with another person within appropriate boundaries as being the ultimate ideal.
That sounds good. I like “directing beyond” a whole lot and I think you can and should start when they are young. Stopping the embedded habit is hard. I think its a great thing for a kid to discover that he doesn’t need it. That he is stronger than all that. I think there is lots of self esteem to be found there not to mention self empowerment. There is also something to be said about the spiritual benefits in terms of personal revelation, if you can follow me into that head space. Mbing tends to be a rather shame based activity whether we want it to be or not . I mean its not exactly the most comfortable of subject to discuss and is the center of many popular jokes for this very reason. BUt…If it is associated with sexual abuse or PA, then I have some other feelings on the matter as this behavior can be a red flag.
Poppyseed wrote:Mbing tends to be a rather shame based activity whether we want it to be or not . I mean its not exactly the most comfortable of subject to discuss and is the center of many popular jokes for this very reason.
Thanks again for the comments!
Of course I viewed mbing this way when younger…but for MANY experiential reasons, my opinion has changed. In a nutshell, I believe that it is “shame-based” only because our culture has taught us that. Where that is not taught, I don’t see the shame in it at all.
But I know that’s way out there!
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