Birds and the Bees

[Anonymous]

A goal should be based on a value, in which the goal helps achieve that value.

What is the underlying value?

Is it learning control (restraint)?

Is it accepting natural physical pleasure without guilt?

Is it sexual purity in mind and body?

What say ye?

[Anonymous]

I think there are lots of people, in the church and out, that never really learn what sexual self mastery looks like. I think they learn suppression….or the indulge/shame self punish cycle or they get rid of the rule so they don’t have to feel guilt.

[Anonymous]

Poppyseed wrote:

That is a valid argument. I suppose then what really matters is your goal. And that just might be an entirely new thread all its own.

Yes it is, I think. What I see is the psychological principle that insisting on total abstinence creates an intense curiousity. And when the hormones are SOOO high as a teenager, there is this constant internal struggle between trying to be “strong,” then failing at times, and the guilt that follows.

Again, I think you find a low incidence of sex and pornography addiction/obsession where abstinence is not the goal. I think the principle has been demonstrated historically in other areas such as prohibition — a major failure — and other dogmatic restrictions.

I DO understand that if you have a conviction that the rule is absolutely inspired, this becomes a challenge. My point of bringing up the historical reasons for its existence is to show that it may be a rule inherited from the not-so-inspired Constantine. Like former doctrines such as polygamy and blacks/priesthood, with prayer and understanding, I think it’s possible to change. But I know it’s not in the near future….

Maybe never…who knows?

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

A goal should be based on a value, in which the goal helps achieve that value.

What is the underlying value?

Is it learning control (restraint)?

Is it accepting natural physical pleasure without guilt?

Is it sexual purity in mind and body?

What say ye?

Again, I think the “guilt” is man-made. I’ve seen cultures where it is a simple bodily function, and not even viewed as anything to be ashamed of. I personally would like us to evolve to that attitude. I think it is healthier.

I think we look at it like other physical urges. We have a degree of self-restraint in all of them. IOW, there is a time and place for everything. Whe we take away the shame of it, it is really quite simple. That approach also allows logical, uninhibited discussion of STDs and pregnancies.

But I know mine is not a popular view…that’s okay. I still luv y’all anyway!!!

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

What is the underlying value?

What say ye?

To me, the underlying value is to become a loving, caring, safe, person. To embody charity. All spiritual practices can only be justified as they lead to that.

I am impressed with this diverse, respectful, intelligent discussion.

ABSTINENCE

There is a time for everything. As swimordie said, “discover the joys abstaining for some time”. No shame. No sin. No guilt. Hopefully life as a whole would be rich enough and glorious enough that mb-ing would be comparatively an “incidental” like, roughly, the ecstasy of a perfect fruit or peaceful bathroom relief.

I think the world is glorious, and lovely as can be.

The birds and bees and blossoms bring sweet messages to me.

I sing and sing and sing and sing a song of joy and love.

I sing and sing and sing and sing my thanks to God above.

MANAGEMENT

I am flummoxed by indications I have seen that some people mb a few times weekly. I’ve seen this in prostate cancer studies. Is it just me, or isn’t that almost a bit demanding, as in, “Aww, gee. Do I HAFTA that often?” At the same time, I am starting to lean toward a generous understanding that good could perhaps result from an occasional bit of conscious hormone management in the half-awake moments that would prevent frustration and inordinate distraction in the fully awake hours. This was not how I grew up. For me, being conscious during a release was a sin. I hope I can love my children enough that they know they are beautiful and okay and not ashamed.

LOVE

Back to Heber’s question. If the supreme value is love, I have to ask what enhances our and our children’s capacity to love. And I have to think the answer is to do whatever keeps our minds clear and positive. Not stressing. Not condemning. Not getting hooked on habits. Not hurting or starving or gorging our flesh. Just loving with all our hearts.

[Anonymous]

Tom Haws wrote:

…Just loving with all our hearts.

Love this whole post Tom…thanks!

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

What is the underlying value?

Is it learning control (restraint)?

Is it accepting natural physical pleasure without guilt?

Is it sexual purity in mind and body?

I agree wholly with Rix and Tom. But I’ll throw in my two cents, too.

I think it would be hard to learn control and restraint if you never lose control or have perfect restraint. So, to be able to learn them, one must experiment with the natural physical pleasure, maintaining emotional health around the practice (no shame, no guilt).

Sexual purity in mind and body…. that’s a tough one. I think there’s some damaging aspects to the idea of “sexual purity in mind”. For one thing, we don’t control our thoughts. Anything can pop in there at pretty much any time. We can re-engage the thought process to try to manage what subsequent thoughts dominate but is having that initial thought sin?

When does checking out the waitress turn into adultery?

I’m actually asking in the context of teaching this principle to my boys. I’m not sure I can wrap my mind around teaching them what sexual purity in mind is/is not.

I’ve become a big believer in the goodness of the person being the dominant guiding principle. As someone discovers and embraces their own goodness, they begin to intuit what is “right”. And, this is the foundational principle for everything that I want to teach my boys. By practicing following the “goodness”, they can develop confidence in doing what’s “right”, and be assured that they are doing things for the right reasons.

Obviously, this can only happen over time, mistakes will be made, but the ability to trust oneself over the dictates of someone/something is so extraordinarily important that I’m willing to see them make mistakes, sometimes big ones if it means they can be rational, reasonable adults, able to navigate the difficult world of gray, wherein ethics, truth, charity, and reason lie.

[Anonymous]

swimordie wrote:

[

I’ve become a big believer in the goodness of the person being the dominant guiding principle. As someone discovers and embraces their own goodness, they begin to intuit what is “right”. And, this is the foundational principle for everything that I want to teach my boys. By practicing following the “goodness”, they can develop confidence in doing what’s “right”, and be assured that they are doing things for the right reasons.

What a great approach! Thinking about it, this is where some probably view things differently…I, probably like you, see “us” as naturally good. That may conflict with some who take the scripture “the natural man is an enemy to God” literally. I don’t. Perhaps that is where the differences lie wrt sexual purity….I think it is a naturally pure and good thing.

But again…I know I’m weird!!!!

[Anonymous]

swim, you might want to read this post:

“An Expansive View of Chastity” (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2008/09/expansive-view-of-chastity.html)

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the link, Ray. I especially like:

Quote:

“In summary, my being chaste in thought and deed is MY responsibility. I can’t blame the environment around me – or those whose appearance “naturally” might tempt me – or claim the devil made me do it. I must change myself ultimately, even as I change my exposure and environment and actions until I reach the point where they no longer matter.”

That is so consistent with what I see as taking responsibility for everythig in our lives. YOU said it beautifully!

[Anonymous]

Another fantastic post, Ray. I’m still trying to read your blog in reverse order and hadn’t got to this one yet.

Your point about the inner-life is so succinct and important. Thank you for this viewpoint. It is exactly what I would like to help my boys develop over time.

[Author]

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