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We had a Sunday school lesson on work. One of the missionaries said he knew someone who was on welfare, too lazy to find work etc etc.
Anyway, I chipped in at this point and said that I know people who have made hundreds of job applications and that there are underlying issues such as depression etc in many cases that this young man maybe couldn’t see. (I even know someone who took their own life due to pressure from welfare. I never mentioned this.)
I was pretty much finished when the bishop shouted “That’s enough!”
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I’m kind of upset about these attitudes. One cannot always just “go and get a job” instantly. We have had 200 people applying locally for a crap job at McDonalds – it was in the news. I know people who have been applying for years.
Like I say there are underlying issues. One of my friends cannot get work because he has high functioning autism and now deafness. Another is an alcoholic. Some have depression or anxiety issues.
We also have a prospect where many jobs – such as truck driving and taxis are going to be taken by machines. A change in attitude is needed.
I haven’t spoken to bishop since this and don’t know what to think. He is a chirpy smiley faced American. I think sometimes the more privileged or healthy members of the church need a reality check.
That’s no fun. It can be hard for people that have never been in dire straits themselves to have empathy or even sympathy for less fortunate people. They can be blind to their privilege.
It’s not the first time I’ve heard this kind of thing off missionaries, I put it down to lack of life experience. One missionary years ago – who larded his farewell talk with his father’s statement of “return with honor, son” – said to me confidently, “None of my friends or family have mental health problems.”
I just said, “I think they do.”
I went and explained to him that statistically some of them will, and that some of them would have some right now, but they are hiding them from other people. Particularly those who were prejudiced about the matter. I also pointed out that the profession he was just about to enter – dentistry – actually has high rates of suicide. That was my hint to him to watch himself.
For this and other reasons, I don’t think he really did “return with honor” in a real sense. (He was very rude on another occasion and I suspect deep down he never wanted to go on a mission. Other people told him to.)
I was in a bout of depression at the time and made the mistake of telling him this. Our local ARP has missionaries going along to it, which I have mixed feelings about. On the one hand, they probably harbor idiotic notions such as I’ve just mentioned – on the other they may get to hear about the things few folk talk about.
SamBee wrote:
We had a Sunday school lesson on work.One of the missionaries said he knew someone who was on welfare, too lazy to find work etc etc.
Anyway, I chipped in at this point and said that I know people who have made hundreds of job applications and that there are underlying issues such as depression etc in many cases that this young man maybe couldn’t see. (I even know someone who took their own life due to pressure from welfare. I never mentioned this.)
I was pretty much finished when the bishop shouted “That’s enough!”
Ok, now you’ve got my ire up. I find it odd that priesthood leaders are so willing to call people out at the front of the class all the time.
I had a row of ex-Bishops and SP in a very orthodox stake years ago that reeked of criticism and dissaffirmation when I was at the front of the HP Group teaching a class. They had a very critical and authoritarian attitude in general, and it permeated through their leadership and class participation.
They tried to hi jack the lesson, but weren’t aware that although I’m in experienced in many areas of life, I’m an experienced teacher. I got control back with a quote from Al Capone that made everyone laugh really hard. I didn’t outright challenge them, but I distracted the class and put control squarely back into my hands. So, I effectively put them in their place and I moved on.
I had another situation where a friend started really shaking his head about something I said. I don’t quite remember what I said, but he was in the Bpric and I didn’t appreciate it. I posted it here on StayLDS to help me get rid of the angst.
I also don’t appreciate it when my students in professional teaching circles call me out in front of the class or call me “teach”. It’s all disprespectful. If I object to something a person is doing, I talk to them privately first — praise in public, censure in private. I expect the same from people in my classes.
If I were you, I’d consider going up to the Bishop to ask him about the reasons behind his “that’s enough comment”. Unless there are other rocky parts in your relationship with the Bp that need top be considered…
I don’t see anything wrong in what you said. Ask him what prompted his comment. This is because you found it embarrassing. And at least you can deal with it be reflecting on any good motives that may have been behind it. Reframe his comment as one that was meant to reflect good motives and not offense.
Perhaps there was someone in the class that had the very symptoms you mentioned — he will give his reason. At this point, I wouldn’t hestitate to coach the guy about how he might have handled it differently, such as changing the subject, or making a comment that clarified what he was getting at such as agreeing with the teacher, but then qualifying the conversation for the class. Or also approaching the person with depression (if any) and letting them know your comment had nothing to do with the, as he had not shared it with anyone.
Anyway, the guy is out of line. I thought your comment gave a very balanced answer to a judgmental comment from a missionary.
And I’m at the point in my life that if anyone does that again to me, I will call them on it privately, and I don’t care if it’s a SP. I wouldn’t hesitate, if the guy shows no remorse, to make a comment like “Well, we can agree to disagree, but I will say this — in 25 years of teaching I’ve never had someone give such an abrasive outburst as that. And its something I personally wouldn’t like to see ever again my class”. And then walk away.
If they release you, fine, their loss.
The postscript to this is that I’m going away from the ward for a few days. Don’t know how long I’ll be. Probably a few weeks at most. They’ll probably think I’ve run off because of this! I have to agree about the use of humor. Sometimes the church doesn’t know how it sounds. They’ve cut back on “obedience” and “authority” thankfully because in some parts of the world these words have a sinister ring.
Also jokes keep folk awake which is a bonus.
I do know quite a few people on (non-church) welfare and they’re not all the happy bunnies that certain media outlets claim. They are not all the parasites and loafers that some people think they are. And the longer you are out of work the harder it is to get back in. You’re underqualified, you’re overqualified, your face doesn’t fit… Welfare isn’t fun. Living off lottery winnings or even your parents probably is (who paid for that missionary to come over here?).
Yikes. I wonder what was under his crawl that day? Jeez. It reminds me of a few months ago in a ward council meeting when I made some comment about divorced members of the ward that should be supported as they go through rough patches in their life…and the HPGL shouted “I’m sick of hearing comments about divorce is OK. We need to tell people to work at staying in their marriages and stop sending a message divorce is acceptable!!”
I was like…whoa…dude…but I said nothing and didn’t let it bother me. More told myself that is his deal-io…but maybe I should pick my moments, not shut up entirely and never talk about what I think which I think are valid…but simply…pick and choose when to make comments that help add to the discussion.
Just because he is the bishop, or just because he said it emphatically…doesn’t make him right. I am guessing others see that too. They may appreciate you respecting your bishop and being careful knowing he may not appreciate some things…but it doesn’t make him right and you should be more concerned with what is right than if someone else has panties in a wad over something.
It’s not a fun dance. But…I would keep telling yourself you are totally justified, and did nothing wrong. I’m sure others in the class see that too.
Even still…we move forward and find ways to navigate things with others.
Just please don’t stop making intelligent comments in class. The class needs intelligent dialogue.
I’m sorry to hear about this, Sam. Some people truly don’t understand some things that are obvious to others who have experienced them or studied them. Not understanding, however, is one thing. Reacting that way is quite another. I hope it just was frustration from a bad day, not something deeper. I also hope he can come to realize how inappropriate it was and grow from that understanding. I don’t hope he learns it first-hand, but I do hope he learns it.
I also want to respond to one other thing that was said in the thread:
Very few leaders actually react like this over a comment like that – or even over almost any comment. Very few would chastise someone in that way in front of an entire class. Leader roulette is real. Of course, it happens, but it is rare. We should be careful about even implying otherwise. Yes, it is an issue with some leaders, and we need to acknowledge that, but it is nowhere close to normal or average or acceptable – and I am positive that the top leadership would disapprove strongly and unanimously.
We hear about it disproportionately, because it is one of the things that drives people here – and to other sites people visit after something egregious happens. There is a selection bias that exists here, and it is good to remember that.
Old Timer wrote:
We hear about it disproportionately, because it is one of the things that drives people here – and to other sites people visit after something egregious happens. There is a selection bias that exists here, and it is good to remember that.
There’s selection bias in what we choose to post about here. There’s selection bias in what we remember reading here. There’s selection bias in what we relate to others that we remember reading here.
Anyway, I don’t think I’ve ever heard a bishop shout, period. Sorry that it happened to you in front of everyone, Sam. Your bishop was out of line.
We had two SP back to back. 18 years worth of public berating of members, wards, families. All. The. Time. I do not exaggerate. Their stories are now legendary. They also had the gall to start a photo wall like a GA photo wall only it was the Stake Presidency walls. Empathy and caring were not even words in their dictionaries. Church dedication was #1. And it was the church as they saw it. They had no problem canceling most stuff other stakes and wards did. They set up a family Saturday policy that was enforced like gestapo. If your key was found in the key record as entering a building on one of those Saturday’s you got a lecture.
Don’t even discuss needy people. The Stake RS President couldn’t get a food order for a family signed because it was Monday Night and Family Home Evening is sacred. The hungry family should have thought of it before hand. And that was that.
Sam – there are some people who really do live on a different plane. Do both of you a favor, take the high road. Stew for a bit over it. Then move on. He will get released some day.
I am also sorry to hear about this. It is somewhat akin to turning off the mic. I have also encountered those in leadership who have not experienced dire need or even want and can’t relate to it. As Ray says, that’s fine in and of itself – it’s the lack of empathy and compassion demonstrated by some of them that is the problem. Make no mistake, the prosperity gospel is alive and well in the CoJCoLDS. More and more I realize how much the “cold hand of probability” has in our lives. The Church doesn’t believe in luck. While it’s true that there are many things we can do to increase our chances and improve our odds (education, developing good relationships, etc), there is REALLY so much that is outside of our control. The LDS Church attributes all of these aspects to God, though I have a hard time seeing it. Sometimes, bad things happen; it’s not anybody’s fault, and there sometimes isn’t any rhyme or reason to it. Personally, I graduated about three years ago, with a degree in genetics and biotechnology, and a focus in crop genetics. It was a field I was told would easily bring in between $65-$80K a year starting. And it was a BRUTAL program. I had internships, a couple of years of lab experience, and an overall incredible resume. My last semester, the industry TANKED. All the graduate programs lost their funding, and all the main players went through massive layoffs and downsizing. Since graduating, I’ve bounced around temp job to temp job; most companies want to hire temp help for the busy season; then kick us out. I’ve had the worst luck; and now my resume is a complete wreck. Most companies won’t touch a guy who’s held four different positions in the past two years, and has been unemployed for half of it.
But then, I can see how someone who is a TBM, who graduates, lands a great career, and is blessed left and right could amount it all to hard work and faithfulness. We like to take credit for the good things that happen; or “humbly” point to the grace of God. I used to be bitter about it, but then I developed an agnostic mindset about it. Good things happen. Bad things happen. Perhaps there’s no sense behind any of it. Let me tell you, if I was still TBM, I would’ve killed myself over how much God “neglected” or even “hated” me. Now, I doubt God’s even aware of my existance. It’s a lot more comforting this way.
dande48 wrote:
More and more I realize how much the “cold hand of probability” has in our lives.…
Now, I doubt God’s even aware of my existance. It’s a lot more comforting this way.
I know how you feel.
And I find it interesting to see how people put stories to things, as they choose to, stories that are meaningful to them and their experiences. Happiness seems to include the choice to pursue happiness.
There is something to be said for the happiness that comes from a positive faithful outlook. And something to be said for the learning we get from disappointments to our optimism.
Quote:The recipe for well-being, then, requires neither positive nor negative thinking alone, but a mix of ample optimism to provide hope, a dash of pessimism to prevent complacency, and enough realism to discriminate those things we can control from those we cannot.
Reminds me of the movie “Magic in the Moonlight” with Colin Firth. When he believes the magic…he is so incredibly happy and filled with the joy of those dreams and amazing feelings. When he pushes to find out the magic is all tricks…well…he satisfies his mind, but loses the joy.
Sometimes it seems God has quite the sense of humor with this mortal existence for us.
It has helped me most to stay present, and enjoy the stories…but recognize that is what they are…stories. Regardless of whether god knows I exist…I have this mortal life to experience stuff…and that is what I’ll do. Life is paradox.
I wonder if he’s taken an exacto knife cut the King Benjamin speech out of his copy of the Book of Mormon, or as he might call it “utter bleeding heart garbage.” dande48 wrote:
More and more I realize how much the “cold hand of probability” has in our lives.…
Now, I doubt God’s even aware of my existence. It’s a lot more comforting this way.
Exactly where I am. It is much easier that way. God set it all in motion and (maybe) watches from afar, that’s it. Nothing wrong with that.
It’s pretty disheartening to hear that line of reasoning from a bishop. Wonder what ward welfare meetings are like when he’s around. (Short, I’m guessing.) Our bishop has basically disregarded the handbook in giving assistance to our family while DH is unemployed – the way it’s supposed to work is you use up your savings, then you ask your family for help, THEN the church will help you. He said ‘the heck with all that’ and allowed us to receive storehouse food and other things BEFORE we drained our savings. It changed my opinion of this bishop – in a good way.
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