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Ok, so I don’t understand when you say that everything is not black and white. Especially concerning the church. Either Joseph Smith saw Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and angels (whatever) or he didn’t. Also, either Joseph Smith received the revelation on polygamy or he didn’t. (hopefully he didn’t). Either you need to go to the temple and perform ordinances for the dead and they can then go to the celestial kingdom or it’s all a bunch of lies and we are wasting our time there. I understand that there are good things in the church. Humanitarian work, cannery, etc. They teach good morals and to be good and kind people. But so do other churches. I use to be very black and white but have concluded life is just not that way. Joseph could have seen god but made up the story of the plates, polygamy or other things he pronounced as fact. What you are stating is that everything Joseph or the church by extension says or does is either right or wrong. I think it is more likely some things may be right and some may be wrong. Or somethings such as the WoW have partial truths but are also full of errors. You just need to try and navigate through the mess sometimes. I gave up (or am giving up) on knowing anything, except possibly what I feel is right and wrong. Even that I’m not sure of sometimes. Of course I have opinions on things, but I don’t knowanything. So even though there istheoretically a black and white version of what Joseph Smith did and didn’t do, you or I simply don’t have access to that. The best we can do is try to look at things objectively and go with what feels right. That’s where the gray comes in. For me, the primary fallacy was my assumption that I could divide people into “the good guys” and “the bad guys”. Reality just doesn’t work that way. There are no perfect people, perfect books, perfect systems, or perfect organizations on earth. God alone is Good; in God we trust. All others are various shades of gray, and must pay cash. The Sermon on the Mount (one of my tip top favorite texts) is not all-purpose perfect. The Book of Mormon is neither perfect nor the most (morally, spiritually, historically, or lingustically) correct book on earth. EXAMPLE 1: William Smith
William Smith is described in our Utah Mormon tradition as a person “only a mother could love”. We imagine him as unsteady and immoral, perhaps like a Samson. But the history is much more nuanced, as indicated in
his Wikipedia articleJoseph’s visions sure don’t contradict Joseph’s having been a rascal at times. From Wikipedia:
On February 14, 1835, the Three Witnesses originally designated Phineas Young, brother of Brigham, as one of the inaugural members of the Quorum of the Twelve. However, Joseph Smith insisted that his own younger brother, William, be selected instead, “contrary to our feelings and judgment, and to our deep mortification ever since.”
On October 6, 1845, over a year after the assassinations of his brothers Joseph and Hyrum, Smith was disfellowshipped from the church and removed from the Quorum of the Twelve by Brigham Young, the President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Smith responded by submitting a statement to an anti-Mormon newspaper in which he compared Young to Pontius Pilate. As a result of Smith’s statement, Young excommunicated him for apostasy on October 19.
EXAMPLE 2: Jesus
The life and ministry of Jesus clearly left a permanent imprint on the world and have inspired billions of people. But in the canonized gospels, there are examples of his behaving badly, such as his conversation with the Samaritan woman. We can either explain why his questionable actions were really noble, or we can explain that
even the best among us are rotten at times. I don’t KNOW anything anymore – like Doug said, I just believe some things and try to do what I feel is “right.” Just using one example like JS. Does it all have to true or all false? Nope. Perhaps JS was a gold digger who had some spiritual experiences and had a VISION of what he believed was god. Perhaps JS had a spiritual revelation dealing with polygamy, and messed up the whole implementation. Perhaps JS restored many truths through his spiritual communication with “something” and then many of those truths got messed up and have taken on a life of their own through the interpretation of well meaning men. Perhaps JS channeled into the spiritual realm and wrote down some truly spiritual insights called the BOM, even though it is not a historic factual document or even real physical plates of gold. Perhaps JS was a “prophet” who gained some great spiritual insight, and was a scoundrel who used his power and position to indulge his sexual urges.
No, I don’t believe in black and white.
Tom stated, Quote:For me, the primary fallacy was my assumption that I could divide people into “the good guys” and “the bad guys”. Reality just doesn’t work that way. There are no perfect people, perfect books, perfect systems, or perfect organizations on earth.
I would agree with you Tom, for I have been a hypocrite most of my life. I used to refer to myself as the Mormon Pharisee. Recently, I was humbled by a gospel principles lesson, and I know it is because I myself rationalize a lot and life to me is not black- and-white. I think it works great for little children to see things as black-and-white, but once you reach adulthood, you need to really be able to discover things for yourself through the intellect and the rational mind. I remember a bunch of times I got duped by salespeople and lost up to a couple hundred dollars. Once, I could rationalize and argue with them and ask them questions to let them know I wasn’t gonna be duped, they left me alone, and I didn’t get ripped off. Aren’t we all just a bunch of salespeople who sell our point of view and stand our ground to protect ourselves from being duped by a charlatan? I am very skeptical of people in my ward (the bishop, various teachers, leadership, etc.). Whenever they ask me to do something, I always try to visualize the motive and feel it out before I say yes or no. Or, I try to counter whatever is asked to me with another question to FIND-OUT more (learned this in the MTC). I already have my lifestyle set, my career set, my family set the way I want it–whatever enters into my pond that seems to cause a negative ripple effect, I toss it out immediately.
I see through my glass darkly, so most of what I see I see in various shades of gray. Life just is more complicated than a black and white paradigm, imo. At least, it is for me – but I am fine if that paradigm works for many others. It just doesn’t work for me.
I was thinking about your question some more, and I thought I would share something that I wrote for my personal blog that will post tomorrow morning, ironically: Quote:When something happens today, tomorrow I can get multiple newspapers and watch multiple news programs that discuss what happened yesterday. Chances are I will read multiple and even radically different explanations for what happened – yesterday.
Yesterday is history, and yesterday is messy and disputed.Compared to yesterday, the 1800’s are a completely different universe. Anyone who says our Church history is clear and easy to understand simply doesn’t understand history. Things are gray, imo, because we really do see darkly – and differently. Everyone sees through their own differently colored glasses, and when those views get mixed around in the same pot, what emerges is murky, not clear. It’s gray, not black and white.
I use to think in black and white(or rather all or nothing). Then I realize that there is really limitless possibilities in between. Just like doug and cwald I realized just how little I really know. I don’t know anything. The things I thought I really knew were just opinions that I was really really attached to. I’m still really attached to alot of my opinions. The difference is now I think I couldbe wrong. My opinion at the moment is that JS really saw something. I think what that really was is impossible to know. I think the church is all built upon JS interpretation of what he saw. What would happen if someone else saw the same exact thing? I think that if 10 different people saw what he saw there would be 10 different interpretations.
What if the things the church asks us to do are really for good reasons but not the ones they say? I think there could be a lot of misunderstanding that happened over time.
Peaceandjoy wrote:They teach good morals and to be good and kind people. But so do other churches.
My town has a lot of grocery stores, but when its time to go shopping I have to pick one. I think other churches do the same thing but I don’t think that is a negative thing.I would like to break these down into smaller pieces and show there is a possible expansion of black/white to shades of gray and even colors, sounds and flavors 🙂 I may be wrong, or I might be right. Or I might be somewhere in between
Peaceandjoy wrote:Either Joseph Smith saw Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and angels (whatever) or he didn’t.
Maybe JS had a vision and not a visitation. Would any of us know the difference if it happened to us? Perhaps even that was not real in the sense that God appeared, but JS had an experience prompted from his own psyche and it very inspirational to JS and he BELIEVED it was a visitation. Maybe God runs the show like that — a lot more loosely and free form than we would like to expect. Perhaps something happened, and JS embellished the story to fit his life experiences, making meaning out of it the best way it made sense to him. Is there a difference between religious meaning and factual history? I would argue there is. It would be a long discussion, but I would point to the formation of the 4 Gospels in the New Testament as a classic example.
Bottom line: Did God actually appear in tangible reality to JS or not? Even if we could boil it all down to that simple a proposition, there is
NO WAYto ever prove it. No way at all. The only people who were there would have been JS, God, Jesus and some angels. JS is dead. God and the angels don’t seem to be willing to provide un-doctored video footage to scientists for review. We can choose to believe we know one way or another for sure. But what makes us more right than anyone else? Most/All of us here used to think we “knew” things about the Church or the Gospel. But now we don’t. We all make guesses, and make the best decisions based on a variety of factors, from evidence to feelings.
Peaceandjoy wrote:Also, either Joseph Smith received the revelation on polygamy or he didn’t. (hopefully he didn’t).
I’m just going to say that the history on this is rather murky. If it were so clear cut, like so many other things in religion throughout history, there would be only one opinion and belief. There isn’t. Is a revelation a
REALrevelation? Again, how do you prove that one way or another? It’s a person writing or speaking and claiming their words come from God. Is there some electronic gadget or chemical test strip that can verify authentic God revelations? We each have to decide based on our own connection to the divine. This is our teaching in Mormonism — test and prove all things, go direct to God to seek wisdom, don’t depend on an intermediary. [James 1:5] In essence — follow the prophet. Become a prophet.
Peaceandjoy wrote:Either you need to go to the temple and perform ordinances for the dead and they can then go to the celestial kingdom or
it’s all a bunch of lies and we are wasting our time there. This was the most problematic assumption. Religion and ritual work in the realm of the spirit (or call it the psyche or subconscious). Again, how could anyone possible “prove” that a ritual helps someone who is dead. We can’t even “prove” there is life after death. Ritual works in the realm of the spirit/psyche and the realm of hope and faith. It’s very difficult to claim that a ritual is a waste of time, especially if it does something for the person acting it out.
So many levels to explore with this. It isn’t just grey, it’s a rainbow of colors. Joseph Campbell is a great resource on this topic (a non-LDS philosopher)
Peaceandjoy wrote:I understand that there are good things in the church. Humanitarian work, cannery, etc.
Might as well continue the break down. The Church does some good, some bad, and some things that are basically meaningless or ineffectual. The do some humanitarian aid and charity, but could do a lot more IMO. They do some harm with certain aspects of our dysfunctional culture.
Peaceandjoy wrote:They teach good morals and to be good and kind people. But so do other churches.
The LDS Church teaches some good morals, and sometimes encourages poor morals through incorrect understand of people trying to apply the ideals of “The Gospel” in a messy non-ideal world.
Thanks so much everyone for responding to this post. Thanks to all of you, after two years, I am beginning to understand black,white and gray. It is taking a long time to get over being mad, hurt, frustrated with all I have learned about the history of the church. I am a lot like some members of the church that believe what they believe and won’t listen to anything or anyone else. I agree that we cannot know all that was going on with Joseph or anyone else at that time. I keep trying to pray and believe what I feel in my heart is true for me. I guess that is all anyone can do. So, thanks again! The hurt is very real. The shock is spiritually bone jarring. It sucks to go through it. Have faith. Whatever happens, and however it works out, you will be more alive, awake and spiritually mature. I know it hurts though. We all have felt that to some degree or another. It’s a painful loss of innocence. The world the used to seem so ideal and ordered turns out to be a hard place. I try to keep hope in the new dimensions and complexity. There’s a new richness too.
Thanks so much Brian, It helps to know that others are going through the same thing. That is why this site is so important and helpful! Thanks
I like the way that Ekhart Tolle tries to explain our perceptions of the world around us, which is that we make up our stories. Things happen in reality, but how we experience them, then translate that to thoughts, then try to convey those to words, can make something that is very Black and White become gray and more gray and more gray as the story is built up. Therefore, I need to be comfortable making my story work for me, even if it is different than someone else’s. By accepting that, I can let go of Black and White binary thinking, and become comfortable with shades of gray as we see through the glass darkly. Because ultimately, it is less important with whether facts are right or wrong…but more about what we do with them to create meaningful relationships with others.
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