- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
http://www.wheatandtares.org/18840/beat-the-parents/ This was incredibly powerful.
Powerful is an understatement. I am glad the people in the meeting stood up. It teaches the local leadership the limits of their unresearched generalities.
I want to share a case in point. Anecdotal, but shows how gospel living does not an endowed adulthood make. My friend has been a Bishop for 10 years. his family is very disciplined in scripture reading and family home evening and living the gospel. His oldest son wants absolutely nothing to do with the gospel. He resented Seminary for years, and never got a testimony. My oldest daughter – I went through a commitment crises about five years ago. I attend semi-regularly, sometimes not for a month or two at a time during busy periods when I am trying to work at being a part-time student. My daughter is fully active. In fact, even when the family doesn’t go to church she goes alone. She has one year of seminary left, and she goes willingly. She has her sights on temple marriage and if that doesn’t happen in the right timeframe, a mission.
By the way, we don’t have family prayer or family home evening. But we are encouraging and supportive. IN their early years, we established certain gospel habits that took root in my daughter.
My son has had the same upbringing, but is a reluctant church goer.
While I recognize that family influence can be significant, it is not the only driver of activity in our adults when they become children. I love the way the members stood up and threw a spotlight on the destructive generalizations of our respected leaders, as described in this article.
Thanks for sharing Hawk. I’ve lived in my ward over 20 years. I have seen many young people grow up in what appear to be perfect LDS families – never miss FHE, daily family prayer, etc. None of those families have more than about half of their adult children active. There is no doubt these children were taught the gospel at home. Most of our own bishop’s adult children are inactive. Like SD said I’m glad people stood up to this malarkey. I don’t think my ward is all that unusual. Loved this comment:
Quote:God lost 1/3 of his kids, does that mean he wasn’t teaching and living the gospel well enough?
I guess it is just hard for the church to preach that things will be OK if you just love your kids and teach them, even if they choose to leave.
Perhaps Elder Bednar should first acknowledge the shepherds of the flock are not properly teaching the local leaders and members of the church about seer stones, false expectations, and simplified curriculum that left parents and members ill prepared for the Internet age of information. Pointing fingers to blame or shame didn’t invite the spirit but brought contention and tears to that meeting.
Good for Jon and others for speaking up. That is a Christ-like approach in circumstances like this.
It is also why I feel fasting for rain or becoming more rule-oriented on the Sabbath may be some good ideas…but are not the better or best gospel principles to teach to my family right now. My kids need substance to things that apply to their lives. My kids know they are loved, no matter if they are in church on sunday or not.
Having my kids active in church is not the end-all achievement for me as a parent.
Shame on the leaders for presenting more promises that yogurt would cure cancer, and that those who have cancer “should’ve, would’ve, could’ve”…when such things just don’t apply.
The wise response was
Quote:“if you haven’t lived it, you just don’t know.”
Have they not learned that “The beatings will continue until everyone loves church” is just not gonna work?
Quote:“Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery.”
Teach correct principles, encourage sharing joy of the gospel living, and allow life to include ups and downs, ins and outs. There are no guarantees.
Teach that the sabbath day can be a delight…but don’t state it is the root cause of disaffection when the church was partially responsible for by creating a correlated teaching program that wasn’t sufficient for our needs, and is too slow to correct itself.
Great post!! Good for those folks to stand up for their own thoughts and feelings during that class. To me, Bednar’s talk feels like strong-arm scare tactics. He knows he can’t scare the people who are leaving, because they aren’t listening to him anymore. So, he doubles down on the people who are still around. I would imagine Badnar has those in his immediate or extended family who are not TBM, or have even left the church. Can you imagine how they must be feeling about his biting remarks? Ugly. :thumbdown: Quote:.but don’t state it is the root cause of disaffection when the church was partially responsible for by creating a correlated teaching program that wasn’t sufficient for our needs, and is too slow to correct itself.
I think this was the root cause of my rage yesterday. It broke my husbands family completely. I glanced over at our Relief Society President her family is in the same boat, and another older couple left the meeting, I surmise, because of the same thing.
Bednar should listen to Uchtdorf’s talk “Stop Judging.”
Quote:However, we watched a clip of David Bednar addressing some general authority group talking about the demographic that most frequently leaves the church and he made a statement to the effect that if teenagers (the aforementioned group) leave the church it’s because of inadequate gospel teaching and living in the home.
If the unofficial statistics are to be believed, that we have a retention problem where as many as 50% of the youth go inactive, this is a very dangerous teaching. Not to mention that this teaching isn’t supported by any of the canonized scriptures. I think it was an offhand promise made to calm people’s fears without really thinking through the ramifications of the statement.
This approach reminds me of the times the bishop called everyone together to talk to all the youth about a particular problem one kid was having, without naming names or pointing fingers (and also without directly approaching the individual that needed to hear a message). We all got a dose of guilt without being sure what exactly it was we did that was not good enough. It is a passive aggressive culture.
I would agree with “powerful”. Here is what I commented on this earlier on the blog. Quote:This hit me hard. It is bringing me to tears while I am eating my lunch at my desk at work. Even though I am in a faith transition, I still mourn that my mother is heartbroken that one of her many kids has about 0.0001% of a testimony of the church (not anti or angry, just does not believe any of it). It angers me that when she hears this she is going to have that knife of guilt turned in her heart yet again when she is such a loving person.
I also have resolved to do as you have done and start being vocal when I see the guilt card being WAY overplayed. I love the analogy of the 1/3 of the hosts of heaven. That is a good perspective to have.
This tactic really has me scratching my head. I don’t see how doubling-down on keeping the Sabbath day holier would make a hill of beans difference in most people that left the church. In fact what I have seen is the most TBM families end up with some equally TBM offspring alongside those that said, “I am out of here” and ran from the church. Those families that are a bit less stringent tend to have a higher % of the kids staying in the church. Those that don’t put much into the church has the least retention. Maybe it is just the way I am, but I just don’t understand how they honestly thing this is going to turn things around. Other churches are going the other way around and having exciting meetings. Even though churches are losing members increasingly, I don’t think several different denominations would keep doing it if it didn’t work a bit.
Thank you for posting this. I was about to lose it during our meeting but luckily I bit my tongue because I was very emotional about it. Our branch president counselor was teaching this and he had children who has left the church. He even said he that he wish he tried hardier in teaching his children about the gospel better. I could tell it was really painful for him and the guy is amazing individual and very strong in the church. I wrote a long email him about how I disagree with Bednar’s message and how he shouldn’t feel guilty about it. I even sent the link over to let him know how hurtful his message was. For once, I would want to a GA own up to their mistakes. Like the blog mention, I’m sure he had good intention but his message is still hurtful and damaging. I doubt it will happen, from what I understand and heard, Bednar thinks very highly of himself and his teachings.
I think that the root problem is that we assume that if the church and gospel is done the right way then peace and happiness will ensue. I call this the Prosperity Gospel and it says that the righteous shall prosper in the land. (sound familiar?) This paints us into a corner when something goes wrong. Maybe it is the death of a loved one, or a priesthood blessing that went unfulfilled, or a “wayward” child, or even suffering a long period of unemployment. One way to correct for these negative examples is to assume that they must have been doing it wrong. Perhaps they were not as committed or consistent enough. The formula works – they just didn’t apply it vigorously enough!
The other way to correct for these negative examples is through timeline. The formula works they just didn’t give it enough time. If they are patient with these momentary setbacks they will ultimately be rewarded with the promised prosperity (even if it must wait until the next life). The timeline justification is difficult to apply to wayward children because we also believe that man will be held accountable for their own sins – IOW those children may be cut off from your eternal family. However there does seem to be hope even for these … IF the parents stay the course and have patience in God’s timeline.
😈 Quote:Brigham Young (1801–77) Second President of the Church
“Let the father and mother, who are members of this Church and Kingdom, take a righteous course, and strive with all their might never to do a wrong, but to do good all their lives; if they have one child or one hundred children, if they conduct themselves towards them as they should, binding them to the Lord by their faith and prayers, I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an everlasting tie, and no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will return again to the fountain from whence they sprang” (quoted in Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:90–91).
Lorenzo Snow (1814–1901) Fifth President of the Church
“If you succeed in passing through these trials and afflictions and receive a resurrection, you will, by the power of the Priesthood, work and labor, as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons and daughters in the path of exaltation and glory. This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning over yonder mountains. Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will save our posterity” (in Collected Discourses, comp. Brian H. Stuy, 5 vols. [1987–92], 3:364).
Boyd K. Packer
Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
“The measure of our success as parents … will not rest solely on how our children turn out. That judgment would be just only if we could raise our families in a perfectly moral environment, and that now is not possible.
“It is not uncommon for responsible parents to lose one of their children, for a time, to influences over which they have no control. They agonize over rebellious sons or daughters. They are puzzled over why they are so helpless when they have tried so hard to do what they should.
“It is my conviction that those wicked influences one day will be overruled. …
“We cannot overemphasize the value of temple marriage, the binding ties of the sealing ordinance, and the standards of worthiness required of them. When parents keep the covenants they have made at the altar of the temple, their children will be forever bound to them” (“Our Moral Environment,” Ensign, May 1992, 68).
I have noticed in some non-LDS music dealing with this subject of trusting God when your world is falling apart. That subject seems to be harder to tackle from an LDS perspective, I believe, because of our underlying assumption of the “Prosperity Gospel”.
Roy…if we didn’t preach the gospel enough in our homes, does that just mean we need MORE time to wait? That would still induce guilt. I’m wondering how to tie this back to claims that preaching more in the home leads to some result. What should my faith be in relation to preaching sabbath day observance and wayward kids?
I don’t think Elder Bednar should be thrown under the bus without even knowing what he said. The guest author “Jon G.” does not even provide a direct quote and no reference is given. The article says:
Quote:However, we watched a clip of David Bednar addressing some general authority group talking about the demographic that most frequently leaves the church and he made a statement to the effect that if teenagers (the aforementioned group) leave the church it’s because of inadequate gospel teaching and living in the home.
According to the author, Bednar “made a statement to the effect that….” I’m not shy about calling General Authorities out when they are wrong, but we don’t have enough to go on here.Heber13 wrote:Roy…if we didn’t preach the gospel enough in our homes, does that just mean we need MORE time to wait? That would still induce guilt.
I’m wondering how to tie this back to claims that preaching more in the home leads to some result. What should my faith be in relation to preaching sabbath day observance and wayward kids?
It is an either/or kinda thing. IF you didn’t live the gospel enough in your home then you live with the consequences. IF you did all that you could do in raising gospel centered kids AND you endure faithfully to the end – THEN you can have faith that your kids will be bound to you in heaven.
This is similar to the situation presented in another thread. IF a single LDS woman compromises and marries a decent guy out of the temple she lives with the consequences. IF a single LDS woman never compromises her standards AND endures to the end – THEN she can have faith that she will have a worthy spouse in heaven.
What do I do about it? I try to give the best advice that I can knowing that it will always be limited. I let my kids make choices and take (age appropriate) risks and I sorrow with them when things do not go as planned. I try to give them a soft place to land to regroup until they are ready to go out on the next adventure. It is the cycle of life.
Shawn wrote:I don’t think Elder Bednar should be thrown under the bus without even knowing what he said. The guest author “Jon G.” does not even provide a direct quote and no reference is given. The article says:
Quote:However, we watched a clip of David Bednar addressing some general authority group talking about the demographic that most frequently leaves the church and he made a statement to the effect that if teenagers (the aforementioned group) leave the church it’s because of inadequate gospel teaching and living in the home.
According to the author, Bednar “made a statement to the effect that….” I’m not shy about calling General Authorities out when they are wrong, but we don’t have enough to go on here.I agree Shawn,
I am careful not to tie my comments directly back to Elder Bednar. My comments are about underlying assumptions present in the church (and outside the church to varying degrees).
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.