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I tried to google Mattson and couldn’t tell if he was excommunicated or resigned. From what I read in the NYTimes piece and heard on Mormon Stories he was disturbed because of the history issues but I didn’t see that he was speaking against the leadership or wanted the Church to stop evolving. He just seemed like such a decent guy who had the rug pulled out from under him. Just wondering.I believe he resigned, where the story takes a similar strain, is that he didn’t go quietly, he publicized it, which added fire to others doubts and concerns. If I put the few pieces together, there was a bit of a mass exodus or rumors of such in Sweden.
I think they are trying to stop or protect mass fall out.
mom3: Quote:On the short list are the following, Carol Lynn Pearson, Mitch Maynes, Robert or Bob Rees, The Givens, BCC team, Kristine Haglund – Dialogue Editor, Joanna Brooks, Dan Wotherspoon, Michael Barker, Wheat & Tares bloggers, Times & Seasons bloggers – this is a speedy go over. So far they still maintain their membership, espouse a nuanced view, engage in conversation and remain in the faithful category or at the least – not an enemy category.
Dang, I’m on that list twice!
It’s hard to say why people do what they do. On a bad day, I think it’s the natural blinders of being Stage 3. I certainly think that’s the ranks of the top leadership in general because they do cull from “company men,” and that’s what you get. But I also have a natural respect for age and have always assumed that with age comes wisdom. Unfortunately, one thing that seems apparent to me is that there are two factors that greatly reduce one’s access to wisdom: living in a bubble or echo chamber by reducing the external feedback you get and the new experiences you have (this happens more naturally to some people than others – unfortunately, in our church we do often isolate our leaders from dissenting views by surrounding them with yes men and women), and a hardening of one’s ability to empathize. The second one is tough to say what causes it, but being successful can lead to the idea that those who aren’t successful deserve failure or haven’t paid the price you have when often success is helped along by privilege, luck and circumstance. Trying to give advice to others when you can’t empathize with them doesn’t resonate.
NonTraditionalMom wrote:DevilsAdvocate wrote:Well what happens if they don’t know what they are talking about to begin with, is there any way within this system of, “Follow the leaders no matter what” to rectify the situation in that case (Matthew 15:14)?
I was watching a rerun of The West Wing the other night, and one of the characters said something about how the founding fathers knew that power would corrupt, so they set up a system of checks and balances to keep that corruption in check. I’m not saying that the US government is a model of morality or anything, but it did make me think about the system in the church. Do we have any kind of check and balances in the church?
It’s kind of a scary logic to say that I’m right because I said I’m right.
I think the closest we come to a check and balance is that the Q15 pretty much have to agree on anything major – and it wasn’t always that way. They are not the “yes men” many in the church believe them to be, they do have varying opinions and disagreements. I honestly don’t think under the current president that has been a big issue, he hasn’t done anything major for one thing. But I think some recent past presidents have been kept in check by this and I could see how some who could potentially reach the big chair might run into it.DarkJedi wrote:NonTraditionalMom wrote:DevilsAdvocate wrote:Well what happens if they don’t know what they are talking about to begin with, is there any way within this system of, “Follow the leaders no matter what” to rectify the situation in that case (Matthew 15:14)?
I was watching a rerun of The West Wing the other night, and one of the characters said something about how the founding fathers knew that power would corrupt, so they set up a system of checks and balances to keep that corruption in check. I’m not saying that the US government is a model of morality or anything, but it did make me think about the system in the church. Do we have any kind of check and balances in the church?
It’s kind of a scary logic to say that I’m right because I said I’m right.
I think the closest we come to a check and balance is that the Q15 pretty much have to agree on anything major – and it wasn’t always that way. They are not the “yes men” many in the church believe them to be, they do have varying opinions and disagreements. I honestly don’t think under the current president that has been a big issue, he hasn’t done anything major for one thing. But I think some recent past presidents have been kept in check by this and I could see how some who could potentially reach the big chair might run into it.Mormon Heretic has a post on Wheat and Tares that speaks to this. It’s a summary of the recent MHA meetings and talks about Pres. McKay having to deal with some of the 12 and their attitudes about race and the priesthood. The days of a president like BY who could do what he wanted are long gone.
I wanted to provide some context of the “Boise Rescue” because their has been a lot of speculation swirling around out there. Unfortunately I don’t know everything, but here is what I pieced together… First, it was in Eagle, Idaho, not Boise. Actually, it was held in the Star Idaho Stake Center which happens to be in Eagle.
Second, three stakes were invited to attend this meeting. All adults from the Star, Eagle, and Meridian North Stakes were invited to attend the meeting that has been posted on Mormon Stories. There was also a meeting early Sunday morning for priests and laurels from those stakes – I imagine a similar message was given to them, but I don’t know.
Third, Before the adult meeting on Saturday there was a leadership meeting where all of the leadership in the greater Boise Area was invited to attend. There, Oaks had some stark warnings and predictions for those leaders. He told everyone there that in ten years we will not be able to share our religious beliefs outside our homes without intense persecution.
Fourth, this meeting was announced in sacrament meeting less than two weeks before it occurred. The news was broke by reading a letter from a seventy (sorry, didn’t recognize or remember the name) urging us all to attend. The only clue we were given to the subject matter was that it was going to address “matters of church history.” No people that I talked to picked up on that meaning this was going to address doubts, apostasy, false prophets, etc. Being familiar with Elder Turley’s involvement with the Swedish Rescue I had a good idea what was coming.
Fifth, Adrian Larsen (
http://www.totheremnant.com/2014/10/40-days-on-death-row.html Sixth, Eagle, Star, and North Meridian are fairly affluent as far as Idaho goes, however, I do not think that money was a determining factor when choosing this area for their presentation. I’ve seen people propagating that theory on message boards and I think it is unwarranted.
Seventh, these three stakes surround the new Meridian Temple being built (still a few years from completion). In fact, the temple is being built in the Star Stake, which is where this presentation was delivered. It is well established in Mormon culture that Satan attacks areas where temples are being built. Whether that is true or not, I don’t know, but I do know Oaks and Turley believe this, and that belief was likely a determining factor in choosing the location.
One last thing – last fall I was speaking with a stake president from one of these stakes (sorry, I don’t want to be specific to protect him). When I told him about my faith crisis and how I know many people leaving the church he told me “oh, it’s epidemic!”. Those were his words exactly. By the tone he used I could tell it was something that greatly concerned him.
JAC….I’m very curious as to what was told to the Laurels and Priests. Anyway you could find out? Seems very strange that that group would be singled out. Were they told to stop looking at church history? Also did Oaks say why in 10 years lds would be persecuted for their beliefs? All so so strange!! Our baby sitter went to the meeting. I’ll ask her next time I see her. Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
JAC: Quote:“When I told him about my faith crisis and how I know many people leaving the church he told me “oh, it’s epidemic!”. Those were his words exactly. By the tone he used I could tell it was something that greatly concerned him.”
Hmm. I question whether it really is epidemic, or at least to qualify what that word might mean, I would like to caveat: 1) all churches are experiencing attrition in like numbers, so it’s not uniquely a Mormon history or Mormon internet problem really – and it happens (according to the studies) that every successful generation is less and less inclined to attend church regularly – like Europe the US is becoming more secular, and yet we are still very religious as a nation compared to northern Europe at least, and 2) I wonder how much of this is the issue of public knowledge. When 24 hours news came out, suddenly everyone felt less safe because we knew every story of a missing child (at least the white ones) and we had real time updates of all tragedies. Parents suddenly didn’t want kids to play outdoors, but it’s no less safe than it was before – we just didn’t know it was unsafe! Anyway, that’s why I’m a bit skeptical about it being an epidemic. But it may be one. Just cautious in use of hyperbole about some grand mass exodus.
I have done research on activity and growth rates throughout our history, and theoverall activity rate is at or near an all-time high. There have been times in the past when it was amazingly low. The overall church membership world-wide is growing, while most denominations are losing members when measured the same way. The growth rate, as a percentage, still is near the top of the Christian world.
I don’t think natural disasters are increasing as much as Second Coming alarmists believe. We just hear about every, single one and see pictures of the devastation.
Certainly, all is not well in Zion – but things are nowhere near as bad as many assume. Much of their view is confirmation bias, just as much as the inability to see issues is for the more traditional, conservative members.
I agree that this is not a Mormon only problem. I consider myself a TBM so I certainly don’t relish the idea that people are leaving. The word “epidemic” was not mine, but that of my stake president. Take it for what is worth. Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
JAC wrote:The word “epidemic” was not mine, but that of my stake president. Take it for what is worth.
Perhaps what he meant was that people are having faith concerns over history like never before. People have always left the church for a variety of reasons but I remember some church leader being surprised that our “best and brightest” (meaning presumably people that are well established in the church) were leaving.
Seems like the hyperbole is the prediction that in 10 years we won’t be able to talk about religion outside our homes….that is harder for me to believe than the use of the word “epidemic” for young people leaving the church. Religion in this country is not going anywhere.
Quote:the prediction that in 10 years we won’t be able to talk about religion outside our homes
Or perhaps we will have dug our own hole.
Aren’t we supposed to look at the beam in our own eye?
Good news is, I barely talk about my religion outside my home. Guess I’m ahead of the curve.
Heber13 wrote:Seems like the hyperbole is the prediction that in 10 years we won’t be able to talk about religion outside our homes….that is harder for me to believe than the use of the word “epidemic” for young people leaving the church.
Religion in this country is not going anywhere.
I live in the southern-ish US and knocking door to door in the nice suburban neighborhood is a near waste of time. But I have many many people I can talk about my religion with – even several really staunch evangelicals! Church buildings just keep popping up all over my neighborhood and two mega churches are coming and 2 others are within a 10 minute drive.I have to agree with this post
http://bycommonconsent.com/2014/10/15/the-handbasket-is-empty/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://bycommonconsent.com/2014/10/15/the-handbasket-is-empty/ I listened to the podcast and then checked out the link to the man and his wife that were excommunicated and I don’t think we have anything to worry about. The typical StayLDS type faith crisis, as I experienced, has nothing to do with what DHO was preaching about. It sounds like there’s a Denver Snuffer problem there and the brethren are trying to nip it in the bud. Doubt in the sense of polygamy, JS and accounts of the first vision, etc. doesn’t seem to be the issue but it’s if TSM is really a prophet why doesn’t he prophesy something. There’s a big difference between wondering if it’s really true and “God revealed to me it isn’t and I’m going to do something about it”. In summary I’d say to DBMormon that you’ve nothing to concern yourself with.
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