Book of Mormon Translation

[Anonymous]

Ray

The only issue I have with some of your theories is that, as I understand genetics (and I’m not an expert but have read a lot), the markers would still be there no matter how much intermingling took place. They have searched far and wide and they have only found middle eastern DNA dating back 10,000 to 15,000 years ago (which shows how long markers last) but nothing more recent. This is why I can only accept the theory that there were killed off.

[Anonymous]

I really think the contents of the Book of Mormon itself clearly say that the Lamanites will not become extict and (at least some) will remain on the American continent.

Quote:

And it meaneth that the time cometh that after all the house of Israel have been scattered and confounded, that the Lord God will raise up a mighty nation among the Gentiles, yea, even upon the face of this land; and by them shall our seed be scattered. And after our seed is scattered the Lord God will proceed to do a marvelous work among the Gentiles, which shall be of great worth unto our seed; wherefore, it is likened unto their being nourished by the Gentiles and being carried in their arms and upon their shoulders. (1 Ne. 22:7–

Quote:

And he spake unto them, saying: Behold, my sons and my daughters, who are the sons and the daughters of my second son; behold I leave unto you the same blessing which I left unto the sons and daughters of Laman; wherefore, thou shalt not utterly be destroyed; but in the end thy seed shall be blessed. (2 Nephi 4:9)

Quote:

But behold, I prophesy unto you concerning the last days; concerning the days when the Lord God shall bring these things forth unto the children of men. After my seed and the seed of my brethren shall have dwindled in unbelief, and shall have been smitten by the Gentiles; yea, after the Lord God shall have camped against them round about, and shall have laid siege against them with a mount, and raised forts against them; and after they shall have been brought down low in the dust, even that they are not, yet the words of the righteous shall be written, and the prayers of the faithful shall be heard, and all those who have dwindled in unbelief shall not be forgotten. (2 Nephi 26:14-15)

[Anonymous]

Hercules, I also am not an expert in genetics, but my understanding is that my entire geneological lineage cannot be determined by the observable, classifiable markers of my DNA. I might be wrong about that, however.

Anyway, my main point is that I believe there are lots of assumptions about what the Book of Mormon says that just aren’t supported by the book itself – and much of the angst I’ve heard from others deals directly with those incorrect assumptions.

[Anonymous]

Nephite wrote:

I really think the contents of the Book of Mormon itself clearly say that the Lamanites will not become extict and (at least some) will remain on the American continent.

Quote:

And it meaneth that the time cometh that after all the house of Israel have been scattered and confounded, that the Lord God will raise up a mighty nation among the Gentiles, yea, even upon the face of this land; and by them shall our seed be scattered. And after our seed is scattered the Lord God will proceed to do a marvelous work among the Gentiles, which shall be of great worth unto our seed; wherefore, it is likened unto their being nourished by the Gentiles and being carried in their arms and upon their shoulders. (1 Ne. 22:7–

Quote:

And he spake unto them, saying: Behold, my sons and my daughters, who are the sons and the daughters of my second son; behold I leave unto you the same blessing which I left unto the sons and daughters of Laman; wherefore, thou shalt not utterly be destroyed; but in the end thy seed shall be blessed. (2 Nephi 4:9)

Quote:

But behold, I prophesy unto you concerning the last days; concerning the days when the Lord God shall bring these things forth unto the children of men. After my seed and the seed of my brethren shall have dwindled in unbelief, and shall have been smitten by the Gentiles; yea, after the Lord God shall have camped against them round about, and shall have laid siege against them with a mount, and raised forts against them; and after they shall have been brought down low in the dust, even that they are not, yet the words of the righteous shall be written, and the prayers of the faithful shall be heard, and all those who have dwindled in unbelief shall not be forgotten. (2 Nephi 26:14-15)

You’re absolutely right, which means I’m now without an explanation. I guess it was an inspired fiction.

[Anonymous]

Hercules wrote:

You’re absolutely right, which means I’m now without an explanation. I guess it was an inspired fiction.

It could be. I’m prepared to deal with that and it would have no direct impact on my current relationship with the church. I have placed the “universal truth required for the salvation of all the world” concept on the shelf, and today I operate with “my personal truth and the best way that I know anything about.” In my new commitment to the church there is nothing as far as any outside evidence that could drag me away.

I’m a little sad that so many members experience a less “stable” personal commitment, but I do understand it. I just wish it could change.

[Anonymous]

Ray, I know that many subscribe to the argument that the Lehite DNA is too small to be observed, but I just don’t buy it. In Africa, there is a tribe called the Lemba that claimed to be descended from Jews. Not only do DNA tests confirm their story (and I will add that they look black like the rest of Africans), but they also have Jewish traditions that are similar to Old Testament Jewish traditions. I blogged about them a while back: http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/05/31/similarities-between-the-lemba-and-lehi/

Now, I know that the Malay theory is “out there”, but there are some interesting things about it. It doesn’t have problems with elephants, horses, and many other things in the BoM. Simcha Jacobovici believes that the Tribe of Ephraim was moved there when the 10 Tribes were scattered. National Geographic is doing a DNA study, and if it holds that these Malaysian people have Israelite DNA, I think that’s quite a coincidence. For those of you interested in a radical BoM theory, check out http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/04/09/a-radically-different-book-of-mormon-geography-theory/

[Anonymous]

Hercules, there could be so many ways that the DNA issue could be resolved. Wait a few years and scientists will realize they’ve been wrong about some aspect of it.

The Malay theory doesn’t hold water to me. The Book of Mormon clearly says that the book itself will come out of the earth in the same land (broadly) where its events took place. 1 Ne. 22:7–8 alone shows that it didn’t take place in Malaysia.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians.

I notice the last bit has been changed. It used to say “principal ancestors of the American Indians” or somethng like that.

[Anonymous]

That change, I believe, was a direct response to recent DNA analysis which made the claim of “priciple ancestors” untenable. As I recall, there was a good discussion of this in one of the “Mormon Scholars Testify” series. I seem to recall it was a chemist from somewhere in Idaho. I’ll try to find it. Alternatively, if you look up Simon Southerton’s blog, you will find a lot more discussion about this, and other apologetics — perhaps more than you bargained for, so be advised.

As Southerton points out, all of the apologetic theories (including North American, Malay, and limited geography theories) have as their basis the unwritten law that the BoM is a historical document. Any evidence that supports that theory is automatically accepted, and any evidence that fails to do so is rejected. Not a good way to do objective thinking.

This makes finding objective opinion on matters such as these problematic. I am convinced that I can NOT find the kind of analysis that I’m looking for from FAIR, FARMS, or anyone else with an obvious agenda, so I am forced to go elsewhere. Everyone has some kind of agenda, but among apologists I don’t believe I can find frank or honest discussion. Hopefully I will be able to pick out those with an anti-LDS bias fairly easily.

In the end, I have to live with myself, so I take in what I can, try to sort the wheat from the chaff, and come home to what makes me feel at peace. Very few of us will ever be expert enough in any of the relevant disciplines that we can take our own knowledge as a point of departure, so I don’t know how else we can hope to approach these things.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

A spectacular haul of ancient flint tools has been recovered from a beach in Norfolk, pushing back the date of the first known human occupation of Britain by up to 250,000 years. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/jul/07/first-humans-britain-stone-tools)

Quote:

The discovery of eight ancient teeth in a cave east of Tel-Aviv that was used thousands of years ago may point to the oldest human ancestors, a study found….

Alternately, the finding may reflect a local evolution of Neanderthals in southwest Asia, showing they were there earlier than previously believed, or that more than one species — one earlier in time, and one later — occupied that area, Quam said…

While one alternative would be to modify the theory that Homo sapiens developed first in Africa and then migrated throughout the world, Gopher said, “We must be cautious; you don’t throw out a paradigm just because of a few teeth.” (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-28/ancient-teeth-found-in-israel-may-be-link-to-humanity-s-oldest-ancestors.html)

New discoveries alter theories!

Consider also:

Geocentric Model

Spontaneous Generation

Maternal Impression

Miasma Theory

Preformationism

Telegony

Caloric Theory

Phlogiston Theory

Emission Theory

Rain Follows the Plow

Tabula Rasa

Atom is the Smallest Particle

Martian Canals

Why should we believe that any frail human mind has completely figured out DNA?

[Anonymous]

Nephite wrote:

Hercules, there could be so many ways that the DNA issue could be resolved. Wait a few years and scientists will realize they’ve been wrong about some aspect of it.

The Malay theory doesn’t hold water to me. The Book of Mormon clearly says that the book itself will come out of the earth in the same land (broadly) where its events took place. 1 Ne. 22:7–8 alone shows that it didn’t take place in Malaysia.

Yup, also Moroni said it was a record of the former inhabitants of THIS continent. Malay theory is a big waste of time IMO.

[Anonymous]

Hercules wrote:

Yup, also Moroni said it was a record of the former inhabitants of THIS continent. Malay theory is a big waste of time IMO.

Moroni says….

This to me, now symbolizes the entire problem with the BofM (at least, my problem this week). If the BofM is an historical account, OR a spiritually inspired … whatever… eitherway, I think most of us agree it is flawed. Either flaws of a “real” Moroni et al, or flawed JS or whoever. Flawed.

And so, “Moroni says” suddenly carries much less weight. Because in essence, whichever view I take (historical or not), there are flaws. NOT a perfect record. So then, who’s to say JS says, or Mornoni say or anyone else says is true or false?? For every anachronism in the BofM, it could come down to, Moroni misrecorded (flaw of mortal man), JS mis understood his inspired translation, and misinterpreted to us (flaw of mortal man) …. and on and on. AND ON.

So, prophets can and do lead astray. Maybe not as a whole, over time or something, but still, they cann be and are sometimes wrong. Even if I choose to believe in it, I must accept that.

Which still leaves me ultimately in the same place–to wit: I have to figure it out for myself, just me and the spirit.

Because 14 tenets of prophet? like never being wrong or leading us astray? I can arbitrarily throw that out as flaws of man. And accept the anachronism that most suits me.

Which leaves me wondering if our absolute claim to absolute Truth and ONE CHURCH … actually make us worse than others.

Restored PH? It ultimately relies on my belif in that truth or whether I think this was an inspired misconstruel of JS’s message. If I choose to believe all of it, wholesale, I have to do it by choosing to remain ignorant. If I choose to bleieve none of this church, I do it at the expense of spiritual feelings I have felt, and have some meaning, even if I no longer no for sure what all that meaning is. Reality is somewhere in the middle. But where? How much is true? Which anachornisms?

These are rhetorical questions. I can no more answer them for you than any of you can for me. But when I hear someone quote ANY prophet now, I laugh internally. Then, after laughter leaves me, I think, well, it may be a flaw of man in the record or the revelation. Or it may be true which makes some other quotes flaw of man…

Too many loose threads.

[Anonymous]

mrtoad4u wrote:

Which still leaves me ultimately in the same place–to wit: I have to figure it out for myself, just me and the spirit.

Yes, the SPIRIT. I think that is the key.

[Anonymous]

Of course, it’s flawed either way (since, either way, it’s the writing of someone or multiple someones who are not infallible and wrote from “limited light and knowledge” according to their own understanding) – and, interestingly, it claims to be flawed. In fact, it makes that claim multiple times.

[Anonymous]

I remember seeing a map of Neanderthal distribution, and I was struck in by the way it coincided so neatly with the areas white people are native to, i.e. Europe, west Asia and North Africa. Coupled with the very diverse appearance of whites, I wondered if Neanderthals were part of white make up. And yet, we’re told HSapiens wiped out all of the Neanderthal. I thought the coincidence was more than climatic.

It appears that another group, the Denisovans account for at least part of the DNA of people in Papua New Guinea, Melanesia, and remote parts of south east Asia.

[Author]

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