- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
just me wrote:
I really think that Joseph Smith was
veryintelligent and had the capacity to bring forth all these works with the help he received (scribes). He was a grand storyteller from a young age according to his mother. I just read that his dad and brother were school teachers.
I concur. I, for one, see it highly possible that Joseph could have written the BoM. Many brilliant books have been brought forth by ordinary humans under ordinary circumstances without claiming a miraculously story. I’m not saying this for sure was, or wasn’t the case with Joseph, just claiming that I think he could have done it himself.just me wrote:But, isn’t it entirely possible that all the stories of gold plates, angelic visits and papyrus are part of the myth? Is it possible that the gold plates buried in a hill are symbolic? If so, does that change the spiritual message of the Books? I don’t think so. Myths contain important (true) pointers for the people who use them to come closer to God.
Indeed, I agree here too.just me wrote:I really think that myths are much, much more than “well meaning fairy tales.” Maybe myths are how God speaks to us. Didn’t Jesus teach in parables? Were those just well meaning fairy tales? I find that the spiritual/symbolic interpretaton far surpasses the literal rather than reducing it. Remember that Jesus veiled the true meaning of his teachings which means we have to go beyond the literal to actually get it.
Indeed, well said.just me wrote:We already know that Joseph Smith did tell lies. Since he did lie, doesn’t everyone have a responsibility to think (and pray) very critically of all that he produced?
I think so, but that’s not what we teach in Sunday School. That’s why I think members who don’t know about church history are doing themselves a disservice. Of course maybe it just doesn’t matter to people, I dunno.I don’t believe Joseph’s parents were schoolteachers. I think they valued education, and may have done some home-schooling (such as reading the Bible), but Oliver Cowdery was the one trained as a schoolteacher, not Joseph’s parents. I’ll have to check my copy of RSR again–I know Bushman goes into quite the details of Joseph’s father and grandfather. (I will admit, that part was boring to me, so perhaps I did not pay attention like I should have.) mormonheretic wrote:I don’t believe Joseph’s parents were schoolteachers. I think they valued education, and may have done some home-schooling (such as reading the Bible), but Oliver Cowdery was the one trained as a schoolteacher, not Joseph’s parents. I’ll have to check my copy of RSR again–I know Bushman goes into quite the details of Joseph’s father and grandfather. (I will admit, that part was boring to me, so perhaps I did not pay attention like I should have.)
Yes, it’s in RSR. Additionally, Hyrum was a teacher. I don’t think Lucy was, but definitely Hyrum, and Joseph Sr. At least according to Bushman. But alas, my memory may be failing me!I don’t accept the argument that he only had a 3rd grade education and hence was a country bumpkin who couldn’t have written his own name, let alone the BoM. I believe Joseph was brilliant!! Had he not been “called of God” he still may have changed the course of human history. In other circumstances he may have been President of the U.S.! I am very respectful of the fact that regardless of whether what he did/said was “true,” the man was a genius.
jmb275 wrote:mormonheretic wrote:I don’t believe Joseph’s parents were schoolteachers. I think they valued education, and may have done some home-schooling (such as reading the Bible), but Oliver Cowdery was the one trained as a schoolteacher, not Joseph’s parents. I’ll have to check my copy of RSR again–I know Bushman goes into quite the details of Joseph’s father and grandfather. (I will admit, that part was boring to me, so perhaps I did not pay attention like I should have.)
Yes, it’s in RSR. Additionally, Hyrum was a teacher. I don’t think Lucy was, but definitely Hyrum, and Joseph Sr. At least according to Bushman. But alas, my memory may be failing me!I don’t accept the argument that he only had a 3rd grade education and hence was a country bumpkin who couldn’t have written his own name, let alone the BoM. I believe Joseph was brilliant!! Had he not been “called of God” he still may have changed the course of human history. In other circumstances he may have been President of the U.S.! I am very respectful of the fact that regardless of whether what he did/said was “true,” the man was a genius.
That is what I heard-JS Sr and Hyrum were teachers. JS appears to have loved to read. He just hated to write. Well, scribes took care of that. I’m sure he could dictate quite well. Plus, look at all his journals. He loved to express himself and use the King James type language. Man, if I was rich I’d totally buy those new JS manuscript books (whatever they are called).
Now, all this said, I maintain that he was inspired. I just think it is incorrect to say he was some ignorant country bumpkin. Being ignorant or genius does not prove nor disprove the BoM or PoGP. I think it is an insult to JS to perpetuate the myth he was so uneducated. JMHO
“Bruce, you have every right to believe that those who have received a different spiritual witness from you are prideful, lack intent, etc. “ “We already know that Joseph Smith did tell lies. Since he did lie, doesn’t everyone have a responsibility to think (and pray) very critically of all that he produced? “
just me,
My apologies, that did come across a bit crude. It wasn’t meant with any malice or a holier-than-thou attitude.
Re: Joseph Smith telling lies…I don’t know anyone who hasn’t. However, the lies that I am aware of Joseph Smith telling are (for instance) denying polygamy to protect others that were involved. The saints were suffering so much persecution already that it would have been foolish, IMHO, to admit to an unsympathetic public that plural marriages were occuring. That would have only made things worse.
I’m not aware of any self-serving falsehoods although I may be wrong.
The papyri was dated, it was found to be created 1,500 years after Abraham’s time. I take the whole PoGP as Smith’s thoughts on Abraham and Moses and his necessity to reinforce the new/restored form of priesthood along with all the other church ideas and policies outside of the actual Book of Mormon: temple ordinances, baptisms for dead, levels of heaven, eternal marriage and family, endowments, god-like powers, multiple worlds, word of wisdom, Adam is Michael, Noah is Gabriel, American locations of biblical stories, America as place of 2nd coming, plural marriages, exaltation ect… If one were to become Mormon by reading scripture alone, I think that person would be quite surprised to see what has been added to church doctrine.
Spacious maze, do you have a reference for the dating? I know that dating Abraham is a little dicey. Are you saying it dates to 500 BC? (As I recall, Abraham is about 2000 BC.) jmb275 wrote:I don’t accept the argument that he only had a 3rd grade education and hence was a country bumpkin who couldn’t have written his own name, let alone the BoM. I believe Joseph was brilliant!! Had he not been “called of God” he still may have changed the course of human history.
Of course, we will never know what JS would have turned out to be if he went a different path than establishing the restored church. I agree he was brilliant, and I find it interesting there were so many people during that time who were really enlightened with thinking differently about God, about governments, about the meaning of life.
I think that while Joseph only may have been given a formal 3rd grade equivalent education, the brilliance of a person is how they learn from life and grow in grace and truth, line upon line. Certainly by the time Joseph was organizing Nauvoo, his knowledge and wisdom had far surpassed any formal education…he was being taught through his experiences in his mission on earth. He did not first obtain all knowledge by God or by any schooling and then apply it…but his brilliance was in figuring it out as he went along.
The Book of Moses and Abraham I think were a part of that journey to bring light and knowledge forward from God, which is more important than if scrolls pass legitimate scientific testing. What I am hoping to find as I study about the origin of these books, however, is that at least there is something that makes enough sense that I can feel comfortable with it and accept the words as words from God. But I’m open to having that be very mysterious answers, if that still feels acceptable to me. I love the teachings in these books.
Thanks for the apology, Bruce. We’ll just have to agree to disagree as to what is a self serving lie, unless I can sway you. LOL IMHO lying to Emma was self serving. My question stands, though. Do you see how people truly have a resposibility to themselves and God to figure out the validity of each and every single claim JS made? The fact that everyone lies doesn’t really excuse the fact that JS did.
I’ll find the source of the papyri dating and get back to you. I found it a while back. In general, I’m really not opposed to the ideas of the church, except for the polygamy commandment. I’m one of those ex-mormons that critiques the church when I’m not defending it from its aggressors. I still have a lot of love for it. I just can’t accept the “one true church” idea from such a sketchy origin. Actually, I don’t accept the idea in itself. But even if its validity is in question, it doesn’t change the fact that it guides people towards a very righteous path. Truth is tropes and tropes is lies.
Heber13 wrote:-snip-
The Book of Moses and Abraham I think were a part of that journey to bring light and knowledge forward from God, which is more important than if scrolls pass legitimate scientific testing. What I am hoping to find as I study about the origin of these books, however, is that at least there is something that makes enough sense that I can feel comfortable with it and accept the words as words from God. But I’m open to having that be very mysterious answers, if that still feels acceptable to me. I love the teachings in these books.
I like to think that Joseph was on a spiritual journey. It was an amazing-larger than life-journey. And it had high points and low points.
I’m glad your open to a mysterious answer because that may be all we ever have….or no answer. Will your testimony of the PoGP be destroyed if there is nothing to back it up? Have you gotten a personal witness that it is the word of God? You don’t have to say if it’s too personal.
I’ve never prayed seperately about the PoGP, I just realized. I only prayed about the BoM. I guess I should do that. But I take things more by topic right now and pray about them individually.
here’s the source for the dating of the papyri: Baer, Klaus (November 1968), “The Breathing Permit of Hor: A Translation of the Apparent Source of the Book of Abraham”, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 3 (3),
http://content.lib.utah.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/dialogue&CISOPTR=1014&REC=11 just me wrote:Will your testimony of the PoGP be destroyed if there is nothing to back it up? Have you gotten a personal witness that it is the word of God? You don’t have to say if it’s too personal.
I’ve never prayed seperately about the PoGP, I just realized. I only prayed about the BoM. I guess I should do that. But I take things more by topic right now and pray about them individually.
I haven’t specifically prayed for a confirmation on the PoGP. The Book of Mormon…yes. Joseph as a prophet…yes. D&C and PoGP…no – I guess I never wondered before. I don’t think I’m vexed enough on the topic to feel the need to right now. I’m more concerned with other matters and am willing to accept the PoGP for the reasons Ray has mentioned in this thread.
I don’t think it would really destroy my testimony if there was nothing to back it up…because as I stated, I’m open to the mysteries of how God can deliver His truth to His children. If I find something completely alarming about the teachings and the source of those, yes, I would then feel the need to take it to prayer and resolve my concerns. I don’t sense anything in the PoGP is so alarming and controversial. Am I missing anything in those texts themselves? If so, please vex me
😆 Spacious Maze, thanks for that link! I have much to digest now. Ha! Don’t we all ?!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.