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I dunno, but I’ve always seen birth as a relatively brief event (although not for the mother experiencing it!) lasting a few hours if that… rather than years on end. I see such gradual change as something quite different, and arising out of the born again experience. Just for consideration, being born takes 9 months for us – and that’s 10% of our lives before we are baptized. As with most things, I try hard not to trivialize or reject how others feel the Spirit / experience God. Just as not all have all spiritual gifts given to them, I’m totally fine with not all having a sudden, spiritual rebirth – and I’m totally fine with accepting a more gradual “change of nature” (which really is the root meaning of “re-birth” in all our scriptures) as a real re-birth for many.
As the resident parser, there is nothing in the original Biblical statement that all must be “born again” that demands it happen in a spontaneous, instantaneous manner.There also is NOTHING in the pentacostal experience of the early disciples that assures me that was a true “re-birth” experience for anyone. Finally, in looking at the “re-birth” experience in the Book of Mormon when King Benjamin spoke to his people and they felt no more desire to sin, it is apparent from the following narrative that the experience didn’t “take” with some of the people. I think we are influenced heavily by the interpretations of others concerning the term “born again” – and I’m just saying I’m not certain that those interpretations have to be Truth. Frankly, I know WAY too many people (most outside the LDS Church and a few inside it) who have felt an over-whelming experience they have termed a re-birth who subsequently have slipped back into their old lives to believe that “becoming a new creature in Christ” has to happen immediately – that a more gradual “becoming” can’t constitute being born again in a real and powerful way. In saying that, I’m not trying to diminish the sudden and obvious re-births that do occur and last; I’m just saying I think the ultimate result of being born again isn’t encapsulated in those types of experiences for me.
SamBee wrote:I dunno, but I’ve always seen birth as a relatively brief event (although not for the mother experiencing it!) lasting a few hours if that… rather than years on end. I see such gradual change as something quite different, and arising out of the born again experience.
SamBee, how does this experience fit with being ‘born again’, in your view?http://home.comcast.net/~mevans41/greaterthings/bofls.html HiJolly
@Ray Thank you for you point of view. I think that adds some perspective for me and I really appreciate it. I do tend to be someone who pushes against the idea that conforming to the needs of the group (even a family) is always the best thing. I think altruism is sometimes bad, and I think individualism should sometimes be the priority. Nevertheless, I do think that in this instance you are probably right. Perhaps there will come a time when I can reach out and go on my own spiritual journey.
@Brian
I think it’s pretty clear that people can experience the “born-again” type feeling in many different environments. Like you, I think I have had moments where I felt “born-again.” But as Ray said, I don’t believe these are one-time-change-you-forever type events (at least not for me). My spirituality and commitment seem to ebb and flow, and I need constant nourishment to maintain it. I don’t know all of what is out there, but sometimes I wonder if I’m not missing something that would really help me. Perhaps this is not a reality.
@SamBee
Yes, I am BIC. And yes, you’re absolutely right that I have a different perspective. My perspectives over the past 2 years have changed radically, and my views have shifted on many things, but in terms of religion, Mormonism is all I know.
HiJolly wrote:how does this experience fit with being ‘born again’, in your view?
http://home.comcast.net/~mevans41/greaterthings/bofls.html
Euhemerus, I’d like you to check out the above link and respond as well. does this fit into what you would think of as being ‘born again’?HiJolly
Quote:Just for consideration, being born takes 9 months for us – and that’s 10% of our lives before we are baptized.
Kind of… I’m splitting hairs here, but that’s gestation or pregnancy. The actual birth itself (from first contractions to the cutting of the cord) is usually over in half a day, if that. That’s why I consider it something different.
But I don’t totally disagree with you. The born again experience, IMHO, can be something which has had months behind it – which does tie in with what you’re saying. But in itself I think the second birth is a relatively brief experience, and something that a person is very much conscious of, as birth is an energetic and even violent experience.
Quote:Frankly, I know WAY too many people (most outside the LDS Church and a few inside it) who have felt an over-whelming experience they have termed a re-birth who subsequently have slipped back into their old lives to believe that “becoming a new creature in Christ” has to happen immediately – that a more gradual “becoming” can’t constitute being born again in a real and powerful way. In saying that, I’m not trying to diminish the sudden and obvious re-births that do occur and last; I’m just saying I think the ultimate result of being born again isn’t encapsulated in those types of experiences for me.
True, but…
1) Can we be born-again again? I’d hope so, for some people’s sake.
2) Even those who have had long term spiritual growth can slip back in an instant. It’s one of those things.
Baptism, confirmation, marriage, death… these are all things which tend to happen fairly quickly (with the exception of the last one unfortunately), even if they have months, weeks or even years leading up to them.
HiJolly wrote:SamBee wrote:I dunno, but I’ve always seen birth as a relatively brief event (although not for the mother experiencing it!) lasting a few hours if that… rather than years on end. I see such gradual change as something quite different, and arising out of the born again experience.
SamBee, how does this experience fit with being ‘born again’, in your view?http://home.comcast.net/~mevans41/greaterthings/bofls.html
In my opinion, he was born again.
Quote:Euhemerus – Yes, I am BIC. And yes, you’re absolutely right that I have a different perspective. My perspectives over the past 2 years have changed radically, and my views have shifted on many things, but in terms of religion, Mormonism is all I know.
I don’t doubt the sincerity of many “born-ins” (or those whose families joined early in their childhoods), but I do suspect it’s a different experience. I’ve been around (in more ways than one), and Mormonism isn’t part of my family make up. Both situations are mixed blessings. I think converts are more on their own in some ways, but that born-ins can be sometimes too comfortable with what they know. On the flipside, converts are there by choice and have come to it fresh, and born-ins often have a good knowledge of the workings of the church, and have family backing.
Or maybe I’m wrong here. I’d be interested in other opinions.
SamBee wrote:HiJolly wrote:SamBee wrote:I dunno, but I’ve always seen birth as a relatively brief event (although not for the mother experiencing it!) lasting a few hours if that… rather than years on end. I see such gradual change as something quite different, and arising out of the born again experience.
SamBee, how does this experience fit with being ‘born again’, in your view?http://home.comcast.net/~mevans41/greaterthings/bofls.html
In my opinion, he was born again.
Ok. I know several members of the Church that have had this experience, including myself, as a BIC member at the age of eight. I know two members that had the experience later in life: one at his confirmation at age 20 (this is called a ‘rare initiation’, and one years after his temple marriage (before he was called to be a Stake President in AZ).What I regret is that our Church doesn’t provide a way to express such happenings, so that (A) people can have faith and understanding (what is possible, anyway, in an ineffable experience) and (
those who do have these experience can understand them better, contextualize them better, etc.HiJolly wrote:
What I regret is that our Church doesn’t provide a way to express such happenings, so that (A) people can have faith and understanding (what is possible, anyway, in an ineffable experience) and ( those who do have these experience can understand them better, contextualize them better, etc.it can be bad for that. I have had certain interesting dreams and experiences, but when I’ve tried to mention them at all, they’ve been brushed off.
Some thoughts. What exactly are you seeking?
Is there something you feel is lacking in your life that you hope religion might provide?
Is resigning your membership necessary to find what you seek?
What is the possibility that no “one religion” will provide the truth you desire?
Would it be possible to hang where you are and be absolutely open to all possibilities life brings…..including a personal spiritual experience that might bring clarity out of the mist?
If we are always actively seeking, as in reading, listening, questioning, etc. might we miss what comes from quiet, internal contemplation?
Simple events can move mountains. Enormous events can keep us stuck. Life, at best, is tricky and continually evolving. Perhaps we could open our hands, not hang on so tightly, and let life and inspiration flow. The journey has many facets that I believe come as we are ready, not by force.
Quote:What I’m getting at is that I have never even considered the idea of being a “born-again” Mormon/Christian/person/whatever. I have focused intently on trying to carve out my niche in the LDS church. I have tried to care about the church, but be sufficiently divested that I do not get angry at things.
But here’s my question: what if, by doing so, I’m essentially rejecting the opportunity for developing a relationship with Christ, or becoming “born-again” or otherwise embracing some life-changing religion? What if my insistence on staying with my tribe is limiting the possibilities elsewhere? I think at some level I have convinced myself that because I am not sure the LDS church is the “one and only true church” that there must not be one. What if this is a grave mistake?
I was not Born Again until I let go of my faith in Joseph Smith and the new gospel that he said he received. I say “new gospel” because I do not believe that the mormon gospel is the same as the gospel of Biblical Christianity. I don’t think that it needs to happen that way for everyone but it did for me. For some reason I felt very conflicted for most of my 42 years in the Church. The pursuit of worthiness and “personal righteousness” drove me crazy at times.
As I became convinced that J Smith could not be trusted, my faith in Who I could trust became more and more cemented. As I read the New Testament, I understood what Grace was for the first time in my life. The only faith I needed was faith in Jesus. No other faith can save me- so I can hold onto those other “faiths” if they served me and let go of the ones that did not- without any fear whatsoever!! What a relief!! I cried tears of joy to finally be let out of a self-imposed prison sentence- one that the lds church helped keep me in by teaching a mixed message week after week. The most beautiful and important message of Grace. How could they get that so wrong for so long??!! It is so simple and beautiful but has become a footnote in their complex and confusing doctrine rather that the MAIN Doctrine. I blame Joseph for that problem- not the present leadership that inherited his legacy.
I do not believe that organized religion is necessary for salvation whatsoever. I go to a non-denominational Christian Church by myself every week and attend sacrament meeting with my wife and 3 girls. I love to hear what I feel is the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ at my Church. It inspires me and fills me with gratitude. I worship and praise God with sincerity and joy like I never have before. I do not believe that the meetings in the lds church afford people the venue to worship and praise God the way He deserves. But if others feel enriched by the meetings then I understand why they like to go. I go merely to socialize and send the message to my wife that I love her and respect her right to believe how she wants. I love the people in our ward but believe that they are missing out on joy unspeakable and greater peace that is not found in lds doctrine and worship. It makes me sad but I know that you don’t miss what you are not aware of. I just want more people to experience the joy that has come into my life that eluded me for so long.
Please go to a non-denominational church and just check it out. I live in St George now but go to SMCC in Draper when I am in Salt Lake on business. They help me grow in my relationship with Christ and I love to go- I never feel obligated.
I am heartened that many lds have been able to separate their relationship with Christ and their relationship with the lds church. They are not the same thing and peace comes in greater measure when that realization is obtained. Personal worthiness and personal righteousness are mirages- they are “oxymoronic”. Being Born Again is coming to an understanding that you can only attain true worthiness through following the New Commandments of Jesus Christ that replaced the Law of Moses. There are 3 of them: 1) Obtain a broken heart (a gift from God IMO) 2) Obtain a contrite Spirit (also a gift from God) and 3) Believe that Jesus is the only Way to be reconciled before God each day. Christ ONLY is perfect and Christ ONLY is Worthy. He is vicariously worthy and righteous for those who are born again in Him. He is ready to justify us before the Father each day if we are ready to let Him. That is the peaceful yoke and easy burden spoken of in the NT. The rest of us who are not Born Again are left striving to obtain worthiness on our own by obeying laws. And the lds leadership has made up some pretty good laws for people to follow- it continually keeps us on the treadmill of worthiness seeking. And it never ends until you realize that you could get off of it all along.
M3GD
My3GirlsDad wrote:I do not believe that the meetings in the lds church afford people the venue to worship and praise God the way He deserves.
I love the people in our ward but believe that they are missing out on joy unspeakable and greater peace that is not found in lds doctrine and worship. Hi M3GD,
I am curious to clear up something about your position. Are you saying that nobody can worship God correctly or find peace in LDS doctrine/worship in the absolute sense, or do you just mean you personally did not find those things there.
I am glad you found something that is working for you. Seriously. I mean that. What you are finding is important.
But if you are saying you found the new one-and-only true path in non-denominational, Bible-based Christianity, then it seems you simply traded one set of faith content (LDS) with another set (Non-denominational Christianity) without really leaving a synthetic-conventional faith framework (Fowler Stage 3). That transition isn’t really what we are helping people with here. We are not trying to establish once and for all the new absolute truth for everyone else.
Quote:I am curious to clear up something about your position. Are you saying that nobody can worship God correctly or find peace in LDS doctrine/worship in the absolute sense, or do you just mean you personally did not find those things there.
Brian,
Happy to clarify my belief. I do not feel that the structure of the meetings and doctrine of the LDS church facilitate people worshiping and praising God and Christ like they deserve. I also believe that many people in the LDS church would like to participate in more worshipful activities/music on Sunday.
To me the 3 meetings on Sunday are mostly about learning and repetition. It is very cerebral and not very worshipful for the most part. There are talks given in Sacrament meeting and comments made by inspired instructors that do uplift people. But as far as praise and worship go- it is almost non-existent except for a private moment during the passing of the Sacrament (if the kids aren’t screaming) and some of the songs. There is a reason for this structure and focus in my opinion- there is a reason why the meetings are usually pretty boring. It comes from the underlying doctrine of personal eternal perfection/progression and the need to obtain knowledge as fast as we can to become more like the Father. The glory of God is intelligence, right? This doctrine is pernicious IMO. It leads to competition (like in Nauvoo) and could lead one to speculate, “I wonder if I have been more righteous than Christ or the Father were when they lived on a world as a man like me”. That is blasphemy in my book. God was never a man.
It also stems from the idea that members can and should become worthy by their own effort and performance. That is simply not true in my opinion. Worthiness is not to be sought after- it is like trying to obtain humility. If you say you have obtained it, then you have just lost it. It is something that falls upon you as the result of a higher pursuit- it (worthiness) is not the goal.
When you are Born Again, you see that Christ wants to be your Savior every day. He wants to lend you His perfection every day that you are broken and exercise faith in Him. He stand at the door…faith in Him alone unlocks it. When you acknowledge your complete dependence on Him for daily justification (in case our lives were to unexpectedly end) before the Father, you can’t help but feel immense gratitude and love for Him. You want to shout his name and praise Him as the Worthy Lamb, you want to exclaim with every part of you the peace and joy that has come into your life because of His perfection that he gladly shares while we are becoming. You want to sing more songs to him and bring people to believe in the gift of grace. We can’t earn it, but we can have it.
I have a bit of a unique perspective because I attend 2 different churches almost every Sunday. I am filled with joy and praise and gratitude as we sing praises to God for a full 1/2 hour at the Christian Church. We then hear a message that most always uplifts and inspires me to want to live a life that honors God, that exemplifies the Master. I then go to the LDS church where there is much less praise and worship from my perspective. People are falling asleep in most every meeting and are bored with many messages that tell them they should “keep all their covenants” so they can have the Spirit with them. You can’t keep all your covenants. It does not inspire people to repeatedly hear that same message in 5 different ways.
Some people may feel filled and replenished by the services at their LDS church but I rarely feel that way. I will attend whatever Church I feel helps me grow in my desire to be a better Christian. By the way, my faith is not up for trade like Fowler speaks about. My faith has always been in Christ and any other faith pales in importance to that one. If you mean that I have traded in one Religion for another then I would disagree as well. I have shed my faith in the Mormon Religion for seeking an organization that helps me deepen my faith and walk with Christ. It saddens me that many people in the LDS church have to “figure out” what the pure, simple Gospel of Jesus Christ is- in SPITE of the way it is taught to them in the LDS church each week- not because of the way it is taught. I believe that the Gospel of grace and justification by faith found in the New Testament is far better at inspiring us to become better Christians than the gospel of personal worthiness emphasized in the LDS church.
M3GD
The way this topic is going has personally struck a chord with me because I have been there, am there. I have attended a “charismatic” christian/”evangelical”/pentecostal type church (not sure what to call it, lol) for the past 3 years. I believe I understand what you are talking about, 3GirlsDad, when you speak about praise and worship and how it is non existent in the LDS church. I think one has to be very careful when talking about these things because its too easy to say which way is “right” and which way is “wrong”. When in all reality, neither is right or wrong. The difference comes in defining “worship” and “praise”. I
personallyam not comfortable in a sanctuary with people shouting their praises, jumping up and down, and dancing in the halls during a specified time for praise and worship. I have learned that my praise and worship of the Lord is not to praise and worship Him like we would man, but to praise and worship in my doing, my service, my obedience. I actually prefer a reverent sanctuary as it helps me connect spiritually. There’s that dirty word reverence… lol! Has the LDS church taken extra, and maybe even unnecessary measures to maintain reverence in the sanctuary…. to the point where church is downright boring?? Maybe.. I would love to be able to clap after a beautiful performance, I see nothing wrong with more instruments used in songs to sing with the congregation. This is all a personal matter, and of personal preference. To say My3GirlsDad wrote:praise and worship go- it is almost non-existent
I think is a statement you can’t make unless you are able to be in the minds of each and every one in the chapel. We have been given an amazing gift in free will/free agency and are able to praise and worship as works for us.
My3GirlsDad wrote:When you are Born Again, you see that Christ wants to be your Savior every day. He wants to lend you His perfection every day that you are broken and exercise faith in Him. He stand at the door…faith in Him alone unlocks it. When you acknowledge your complete dependence on Him for daily justification (in case our lives were to unexpectedly end) before the Father, you can’t help but feel immense gratitude and love for Him
Couldn’t agree more. It is an amazing thing to have Christ in our lives. Others may choose to dance like David danced in honor of this, and others choose to make sure their life is as perfectly aligned as possible with the Word as their sacrifice. To each his own (or both!)My3GirlsDad wrote:I will attend whatever Church I feel helps me grow in my desire to be a better Christian.
Awesome!My3GirlsDad wrote:I believe that the Gospel of grace and justification by faith found in the New Testament is far better at inspiring us to become better Christians than the gospel of personal worthiness emphasized in the LDS church.
The last lesson I attended at an LDS church discussed this very thing. It was actually emphasized how we are saved ONLY by grace. There is no amount of work that we can do that can save us. No amount of building up what we might feel is worthy behavior that will save us. Who are we to judge? We are saved by grace through faith… I feel like if I choose to have faith in Christ that it is my duty to be as obedient as I possibly can to his teachings, this in turn, I pray, will show Him whatever worthiness is in me to receive His blessings. It seems to me that a “gospel of personal worthiness” is there to aid us, but we are taught that it is Grace alone that saves us. This has been my personal experience with this topic in the Church.I think it is absolutely great that you have found something that works for you. Others have found things that work for them. The only thing we can do is turn to the Word and see where it leads us in our lives. To take measure and say what is right or wrong, we can only do from a personal standpoint, and not towards anybody else, or any other group of faith. This is a personal spiritual journey and we are not in a position to judge anyone elses.
BUT… to keep things on topic.. LOL I feel that being born again is also a very personal experience. To some it can be one magnificent event, to others a series of events.. to some, it is over a matter of time with God. I’m definitely a part of the latter. Bible mentions the term “born again” and it seems to me to reference being a “new creature” This amount of change within a person can happen overnight (my father quit cold turkey one day from smoking 2 packs a day…. not that I’m saying he was born again, haha… just an example) or it can take time (many people struggle with smoking for months, or years, until they have officially quit)
I definitely believe you can have a born again experience within the Church. I was actually not in the LDS church at all, when I feel I had a “born again” experience, that has brought me steps closer to the LDS. (did that make any sense??
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