Born again?

[Anonymous]

I tend to have more of a connection to God and Christ in the silence, after removing all the distractions of the world around me. I am pretty sure this is because I am a natural introvert, defined as someone who “recharges” with solitude instead of an extrovert who does so by tapping into the energy of people in motion and action around them.

1 Kings 19:11-13, NRSV wrote:

He said, ‘Go out and stand on the mountain before the Lord, for the Lord is about to pass by.’ Now there was a great wind, so strong that it was splitting mountains and breaking rocks in pieces before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake; and after the earthquake a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire; and after the fire a sound of sheer silence. When Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his mantle and went out and stood at the entrance of the cave. Then there came a voice to him…

So this is why I was asking the question above. I love your sense of live-and-let-live, M3GD. But I disagree that people can not find God and Christ in LDS worship services. There are lots of people that do find valuable worship and praise through the more “boring” (aka quiet and reverent) and intellectual flavor of LDS practice. Christ may in fact enjoy people worshiping and praising Him a lot of different ways. He (God-Christ) seems to have made a lot of different people, and those people make lots of different forms of worship. The results and the reality I see around me speak of a strong sense of diversity in the divine.

This is why I think it is so important to look around, and certainly explore the world of faith practice. If we aren’t getting nourishment in one place enough to fill us, we should be active in seeking it out from other sources.

[Anonymous]

PressingForward,

Thank you for your insight. You mentioned,

Quote:

I personally am not comfortable in a sanctuary with people shouting their praises, jumping up and down, and dancing in the halls during a specified time for praise and worship.

I don’t think the church I attend would be characterized as charismatic but they definitely have a different way of Praising and Worshiping God. Music reaches and inspires me. I love to sing songs that express how I feel about God and His Son. I love these songs in the LDS hymnal: I need Thee every hour, Because I have been given much, I believe in Christ, How great Thou art. So you are right- I personally do not find the LDS meetings very worshipful compared to the Christian church I attend- probably because of the sheer volume of singing at the Christian church.

I guess it is a double whammy for me because I now find almost all LDS doctrine unappealing and uninspiring as well.

Quote:

I feel like if I choose to have faith in Christ that it is my duty to be as obedient as I possibly can to his teachings, this in turn, I pray, will show Him whatever worthiness is in me to receive His blessings

I have a problem with the word worthiness. I admit it- isn’t that the first step toward recovery? I will never use that word to describe another person for as long as I live unless I am talking about them having worthiness imputed to them through faith in Christ. No offense meant but there will never be any worthiness in you or me, ever. I realize that we may just be talking semantics here but that word is reserved for HIM. I believe we can be obedient to many commandments. And He does want our obedience to show that we are sincere and that our hearts are His. But worthiness? Never attainable or worth being sought after to any degree.

I believe that those who still believe they can claim ANY form of worthiness have been indoctrinated by a heretical teaching. A teaching that many religions espouse and one that J Smith created for his church. And I believe it stunts our growth, peace and joy. That teaching fosters pride (for those who think they are worthy, cognitive dissonance (for those who realize the teaching is faulty), and depression (for those who regularly feel guilt and shame because they realize that they will never be worthy by lds standards). I really want to reach those who are in the latter category. They are SO CLOSE to being set free and they don’t even know it. Once they learn that they are allowed to stop striving for worthiness- that God actually wants to GIVE it to them through their brokenness and faith- their whole paradigm will change. That is JOY that we are all entitled to!!

I hope that clarifies things a little more. M3GD

[Anonymous]

My3GirlsDad wrote:

I have a problem with the word worthiness.

LOL… I’ve never used the word before until today! Gotta love the forum… haha

I agree with you in that we cannot claim any self-worth. This can definitely foster pride in a human being, and we all know pride is not something we necessarily want to have. Striving to be worthy in eyes of God through obedience of His teachings, and claiming self-worth are two different things. We must all remember that no matter what we do on this Earth, we fall short, and are ONLY justified through His grace which is in the atonement. Because of this, I will forever be unworthy… this does not mean that I cannot strive to find favor in His eyes by being obedient (Proverbs 3:1-4)

Brian Johnston wrote:

If we aren’t getting nourishment in one place enough to fill us, we should be active in seeking it out from other sources.

Loved your response Brian! I constantly enjoy reading your responses… Amen to this one!

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Brian Johnson wrote:

I tend to have more of a connection to God and Christ in the silence, after removing all the distractions of the world around me. I am pretty sure this is because I am a natural introvert, defined as someone who “recharges” with solitude instead of an extrovert who does so by tapping into the energy of people in motion and action around them.

I too, am a natural introvert who “recharges” with solitude, and never with a group of people (although I do really enjoy group singing when it is good) I have tried meditation, long walks, hiking,and backpacking. While I enjoy those activities, I still have not had much success in connecting to the divine. Would you share how you have been able to succeed in developing that close contact with God and Christ? Much appreciated.

[Anonymous]

HiJolly wrote:

HiJolly wrote:

how does this experience fit with being ‘born again’, in your view?

http://home.comcast.net/~mevans41/greaterthings/bofls.html

Euhemerus, I’d like you to check out the above link and respond as well. does this fit into what you would think of as being ‘born again’?

HiJolly

What a great story! A little dramatic, but a great story. I don’t really have a definition of being “born again,” but from what I can glean it seems that this story would fit the bill very nicely. I wish I had such an experience.

Ultimately, here’s my take on where this thread has gone. I think I labeled inappropriately. I should not have mentioned anything about being born again because that is not the point. I would not for a second argue that people cannot experience such things in the LDS tradition. What concerns me is whether or not I can. I do think I can, but I often wonder if there’s something that would do it better than my tradition. I do think that most of us are most comfortable in our childhood tradition, so perhaps there isn’t anything better. But I hear stories like McCraney’s and I have to wonder.

[Anonymous]

Euhemerus wrote:

Ultimately, here’s my take on where this thread has gone. I think I labeled inappropriately. I should not have mentioned anything about being born again because that is not the point. I would not for a second argue that people cannot experience such things in the LDS tradition. What concerns me is whether or not I can. I do think I can, but I often wonder if there’s something that would do it better than my tradition. I do think that most of us are most comfortable in our childhood tradition, so perhaps there isn’t anything better. But I hear stories like McCraney’s and I have to wonder.

It is possible that the symbolism and mythic structure of belief in another religion or tradition may work better for you, but ultimately the essence of spiritual experience and confirmation has to do with identical issues in every tradition, be it Chaos Magic or the Presbyterian church. Belief. Faith. Expectation. Active patience (as Pres. Uchtdorf spoke in Conference). Investment.

I studied other traditions for years, and I even made tentative efforts in following some of those, but I never really gave up my Mormonism for another tradition. Intellectually, I never found a ‘better’ way.

When I finally did give up my belief in Mormonism to God, God gave it back to me in a wholly new way that I never could have anticipated. For every person, I suppose it is different in how it happens, in how it works. And it is only belief and hope that keeps us from concluding that we will never ‘know’.

I wish I had a better answer/comment.

HiJolly

[Anonymous]

dash1730 wrote:

Quote:

Brian Johnson wrote:

I tend to have more of a connection to God and Christ in the silence, after removing all the distractions of the world around me. I am pretty sure this is because I am a natural introvert, defined as someone who “recharges” with solitude instead of an extrovert who does so by tapping into the energy of people in motion and action around them.

I too, am a natural introvert who “recharges” with solitude, and never with a group of people (although I do really enjoy group singing when it is good) I have tried meditation, long walks, hiking,and backpacking. While I enjoy those activities, I still have not had much success in connecting to the divine. Would you share how you have been able to succeed in developing that close contact with God and Christ? Much appreciated.

*Brian looks around behind him like you might be talking to someone else*

Who me?

I don’t know. It seems pretty normal to me. That’s the problem. It’s hard to describe because it’s just always been that way for me. There’s a light and a sound that are a feeling, and they are all the same thing to my senses. I hear it with my eyes (which is the wrong physical sense to perceive sound), but it is like eyes that are somewhere else than the two eyeballs stuck to the front of my face. It’s like I see this super-real reality from a perspective of standing about a foot behind myself (but only when I can quiet the distractions).

In this light/sound that is everywhere even in complete darkness, there is an overwhelming sense of total clarity and acceptance, unconditional love. The best way to describe it is that people are dreaming. We are asleep in a dream that is our life — a life full of noise, distractions, expectations, assumptions, desires and cravings, and other people telling us what we *should* be dreaming. Other people want us to validate their dream, especially their expectations.

If I can find a place that is quiet and free of people, I can get rid of a lot of that “psychic noise” that drowns out the light/sound.

I guess this is a meditation that I do. I lay on the floor, or sit outside somewhere where it is quiet. I slow my breathing rate, and breathe deeper. I focus on letting go of all the frantic concerns of my life. I relax. I let go of strong emotions — things that might be making me mad, or even a strong desire to do or have something (that is a distraction). I let go of being tied to my body and the fear of separation. I imagine that I am floating in a tank of water, or laying in a comfortable position REALLY somewhere else, and I feel like I can almost wake up, but it is waking up into a super-clear and crisp reality that is more real than where we are now. We are not from this place we experience. We are strangers here.

When I get into this “zone” I feel like everything is clear, crisp and easy to understand, and I am close to “God” (whatever God is … I used to think I knew). I can look at my dream (real life) with a lot less passion. I get ideas. I feel connected to everyone and everything all at once. I see how problems that I have unravel and untangle, falling apart simply with the right solutions.

Now since making peace with “God” (this light/sound that is everything all at once), I also feel that everything is “OK” somehow. Everything is as it should be, in it’s journey through time like a flip-book of animated images. I am experiencing what I want to experience. It is my own doing. So is everyone else.

That is about the best way using words that I can describe the experience and process of getting rid of the “distractions” of the world and connecting with the divine (for me). I don’t know if this same “meditation” would even work for anyone else the same way. It seems normal and natural to me.

I guess being a screw up in so many other ways, this was a consolation prize (a gift) I got.

[Anonymous]

Brian,

Thanks for sharing your experience of “connecting with the divine” or whatever you want to call it. I’ll try it, or at least my version of it and let you know.

I had an interesting experience yesterday. My temple recommend had lapsed by a couple of months, and I just got it renewed. Driving home from the 2nd interview, I had the distinct impression that God was pleased that I got it renewed. I don’t often get those confirmations that what I’m doing is right, but they are nice even thou they are a decade or two apart. Maybe it is time for me to try a few ways again to reconnect w/ God.

[Anonymous]

HiJolly wrote:

Euhemerus wrote:

Ultimately, here’s my take on where this thread has gone. I think I labeled inappropriately. I should not have mentioned anything about being born again because that is not the point. I would not for a second argue that people cannot experience such things in the LDS tradition. What concerns me is whether or not I can. I do think I can, but I often wonder if there’s something that would do it better than my tradition. I do think that most of us are most comfortable in our childhood tradition, so perhaps there isn’t anything better. But I hear stories like McCraney’s and I have to wonder.

It is possible that the symbolism and mythic structure of belief in another religion or tradition may work better for you, but ultimately the essence of spiritual experience and confirmation has to do with identical issues in every tradition, be it Chaos Magic or the Presbyterian church. Belief. Faith. Expectation. Active patience (as Pres. Uchtdorf spoke in Conference). Investment.

I studied other traditions for years, and I even made tentative efforts in following some of those, but I never really gave up my Mormonism for another tradition. Intellectually, I never found a ‘better’ way.

When I finally did give up my belief in Mormonism to God, God gave it back to me in a wholly new way that I never could have anticipated. For every person, I suppose it is different in how it happens, in how it works. And it is only belief and hope that keeps us from concluding that we will never ‘know’.

I wish I had a better answer/comment.

HiJolly

Thanks HiJolly! I actually really appreciate your comments. Perhaps I just need to do a better job of trying to have mystical experiences (they don’t come natural to me). Anyway, I appreciate your perspective.

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