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mackay11 wrote:
I thought the church already have their own young men’s program… Isn’t it called… the young men’s program (like the young women program)? Duty to God is the achievement program and the youth leaders organise activities/events and camps.
Or do we just have a different version of the church in UK. The franchised version. Like the original but trimmed down of the best (or worst?) bits…
You’re right, we have our own program, but it’s part of an ugly marriage to the BSA YM program, especially for Deacons. Here in the US, we expect our YM to do both Duty to God and get their Eagle. This is very difficult and time consuming for those boys who take sports, academics, music, or some other extra-curricular activity seriously during high school.
What I meant is that I think the church will eventually leave BSA as a wholesale supporter and embrace Duty to God as the only official YM program. The church may say Eagle is optional or soften it, but where I live it’s considered more important to get your Eagle than to complete Duty to God.
SamBee wrote:Gays have aways been in the scouts…
Yeah, I think some might be surprised at how many gay Eagle scouts there are in the world…
turinturambar wrote:SamBee wrote:Gays have aways been in the scouts…
Yeah, I think some might be surprised at how many gay Eagle scouts there are in the world…
Some people think Baden-Powell himself was gay. Anyone who thinks gays in the military are a new phenomenon is also wrong.
I think even the pro-gay parts of the media don’t help when they stereotype gay men as effete effeminate mincers when in fact many are quite masculine and/or not that obvious.
SamBee wrote:
Some people think Baden-Powell himself was gay. Anyone who thinks gays in the military are a new phenomenon is also wrong.
There’s many a cheap comedian who’s had fun with the title of Baden-Powell’s book ‘Scouting for Boys.’
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_for_Boys One of the things that infuriates me about the argument against gay scout leaders is that they would ‘hit on’ the boy scouts. Urgh… Hello? They’re attracted to other men, not children.
There were often women working in our local scout troupe, unsurprisingly they weren’t considered a threat to seducing the poor, vulnerable scouts. However do these women control themselves???
Old-Timer wrote:Also, for the record, just to put it out there and not as an admin stance of any kind, I personally don’t like the term “gays”. It carries too much of a slur in society and in my own experience.
Out of interest sake, what term do you prefer. I find that homosexual has to much of a clinical diagnosis feeling for my liking.
I too would like to see scouts abandoned by the church for an entirely different set of reasons.
turinturambar, if you read this, is there a commonly accepted term among homosexuals that is better than “gays” – or is “gays” fine with most people? I know it’s not the same thing, but most of my non-straight friends use “LGBT” when talking about the largest group of people who are counted within Gender and Sexual Minorities (GSM). When I talk about those who are homosexual, I tend to use that term – often for the shock value of making people who are squeamish about the topic come to grips with hearing it. Otherwise, I use something like “people who are LGBT”.
I never, ever use the phrase “suffer from same-sex attraction” – and, frankly, I don’t like the term “same-sex attraction” much. It’s accurate, technically, but it feels like a politically correct, substitute construct for those who can’t bring themselves to say “homosexual”.
If I’m wrong on this, I have no problem being told so.
Actually when I was discussing this with someone they said, “the married ones, they’re the worst.” Which I understood immediately… anyone who works with children should be vetted IMHO.
mackay11 wrote:I thought the church already have their own young men’s program… Isn’t it called… the young men’s program (like the young women program)? Duty to God is the achievement program and the youth leaders organise activities/events and camps.
Or do we just have a different version of the church in UK. The franchised version. Like the original but trimmed down of the best (or worst?) bits…
How do you get away without Scouts in the UK? Here is Canada it is a mixed bag in the church. Some wards/stakes don’t care much for it, and others hold to the dogma and preach all sorts of “Pres Monson says Scouting is of God…” mumbo jumbo. I am in one of these stakes, but luckily, I serve with the deacons in a ward that doesn’t care about the program.
Scouts Canada doesn’t have issues allowing gays in Scouting, but I am sure our LDS troops differ. I don’t know how it is South of the border, but up here we don’t go to big overnight scout events because Scouts Canada has girls at these events. I think our leaders just assume that there are no gay LDS scouts, even though I have had 3 boys go through my program in the last 2 years that I wouldn’t be shocked if they came out. In fact only 1 of 3 boys in my family got his Chief Scout Award (Eagle equivalent) he happens to be the gay brother. I love pointing this out to people who try to preach the fallacy that if a boy earns their chief/eagle, they will be more likely to serve a mission, marry in the temple etc. But that is a side tangent.
ihhi wrote:mackay11 wrote:I thought the church already have their own young men’s program… Isn’t it called… the young men’s program (like the young women program)? Duty to God is the achievement program and the youth leaders organise activities/events and camps.
Or do we just have a different version of the church in UK. The franchised version. Like the original but trimmed down of the best (or worst?) bits…
How do you get away without Scouts in the UK? Here is Canada it is a mixed bag in the church. Some wards/stakes don’t care much for it, and others hold to the dogma and preach all sorts of “Pres Monson says Scouting is of God…” mumbo jumbo. I am in one of these stakes, but luckily, I serve with the deacons in a ward that doesn’t care about the program.
Scouts Canada doesn’t have issues allowing gays in Scouting, but I am sure our LDS troops differ. I don’t know how it is South of the border, but up here we don’t go to big overnight scout events because Scouts Canada has girls at these events. I think our leaders just assume that there are no gay LDS scouts, even though I have had 3 boys go through my program in the last 2 years that I wouldn’t be shocked if they came out. In fact only 1 of 3 boys in my family got his Chief Scout Award (Eagle equivalent) he happens to be the gay brother. I love pointing this out to people who try to preach the fallacy that if a boy earns their chief/eagle, they will be more likely to serve a mission, marry in the temple etc. But that is a side tangent.
I’m not sure. I think in the 80s there were a couple of trials, but it never took. We don’t have the heritage of relationship I guess.
Some boys go to their local (aaaah..) troupe/pack (??) for themselves, but it’s not a program.
There’s a lot of stuff we just let North America get on with and sort ourselves out.
Quote:There’s a lot of stuff we just let North America get on with and sort ourselves out.
That might be the best commentary ever at this site.
:clap: :thumbup: My guess is that whatever the BSA does, it will be business as usual in the LDS Church (at least in the U.S.A.). Politics aside, I think the Boy Scouts is a good organization but I was never very interested in doing scouting things. My father never did much with scouts, my brothers and I never did much, and my son doesn’t do much. Frankly, I’d prefer the Young Men’s program in the Church to de-emphasize scouting and focus on other things. Gerald wrote:Frankly, I’d prefer the Young Men’s program in the Church to de-emphasize scouting and focus on other things. Agreed.
cwald wrote:Gerald wrote:Frankly, I’d prefer the Young Men’s program in the Church to de-emphasize scouting and focus on other things. Agreed.
Or, to actually do Scouting, not some halfway, mutant, convoluted, needlessly complicated interpretation, of it, where Eagle/Chief scout awards are just expected by the parents, like priesthood advancement.
The boys are supposed to really work at it, doing self-driven self-improvement projects and loads of community service, not get it because they are turning 14 and stacked some chairs at stake conference.
As far as the LGBT issue, I think it flies in the face of the principles of scouting to exclude their worthwhile contributions. I don’t think most gays are out trying to convert other people to be like them, unlike some other group I can think of.
I can’t imagine scouting is what it used to be, with iPods, cellphones (with cameras) etc I have been to scout camp several times…as a scout, once as a scout staffer and multiple times as a sxcout leader. 1st: as Sambee says…there are always gays in scouting..Spend some time in scout camp and you can’t help but go..”um..yeah…” Not being rude but lets just say when there is a job asking for a grown man who wants to hang out in nature, likes to play in skits, singing and dancing around, write songs, help children learn and need to be fairly unattached as you will be away for extended periods of time…
Guess what…you are probably going to get a gay man or two. The full on cheek to cheek man embraces with giggles of pure joy…yeah…
Our last scout camp they actually held an all boys dance…went over like a lead ballon with the LDS troops. bottom line is..gotta quit kidding ourselves.
2nd: Molesting does happen in scouts. Some molesters have bi or gay tendencies. Most do not. Gay does not equal molester. To be honest Sexual repression and dysfunctional family situations and abuse lead to molesters and they come in all flavors and have generally learned to hide it.
3rd: The church should drop scouting. We are giving scouting a bad name. talk to a lot of scout leaders and such and they would love to break our stranglehold on the program. The LDS troops frequently are the biggest jerks in camp…our kids are there because it is a commandment…so are the leaders…and a leader who wants to be part of scouts will quickly be beaten into submission unless he/she has lots of time and money as they will be underfunded and ridiculously restricted….so what you get is a bunch of LDS kids turning into adults who hate scouting. if we got away from scouting then maybe LDS kids could join a local roop and have th ereal scouting experience.
4th: the church sucks at connecting with young boys….not sure how to fix it. Unreal expectations, stuffed shirt leaders and most of the cool stuff like road shows dance festivals etc are all gone now. Go sit in a room and come up with something that has a priesthood purpose…the rest of the time go rake old peoples lawns and feel bad if you are not thrilled with it!
Wow…i am a cranky pants….can you tell i spent years trying to have a fun Young Mans program?
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