Breaking down the wall

[Anonymous]

…

Ray brought up a point I wanted to discuss further. It started like this:

Peaceandjoy wrote:

I know that eventually this experience will be a growing one and I know I am already growing. But does anyone feel like they are on the outside looking in? That is how I feel and it is a lonely place. But I feel hope when I come here because I see so many of you have gone through the same thing and have made it on the other side.

Old-Timer wrote:

Fwiw, it’s not so much that I’ve made it through and am on the other side. It’s more that I’ve chosen intentionally to engage from within (am on the “same side”) but just with a different perspective.

I know this is simplistic, but it really is about learning to be comfortable with yourself enough that you are willing to sacrifice for the group – even some things that seemed important when it was all about you. I’m NOT saying it was “wrong” to be in the stage when it was all about you. That’s a pretty good definition of Stage 4 in many ways, and it simply is inevitable for those who run headfirst into the wall.

The key, imo, is to stop trying to get around or over the wall, so you can be on the other side. They key, imo, is to learn to take apart the wall so there no longer is anything separating you – no “sides”, if you will. Maybe that deserves a different post, but I’ll leave it here for now.

I like this idea of “breaking down the wall.”

For me my wall is largely my preconceived ideas, the “absolutist” notions that expect a higher level of perfection than humans can regularly produce. It can be a difficult wall to dismantle, depending on how our personal wall was constructed. Some of ours was constructed of a high grade concrete reinforced with steel. When we have limited tools it can take a very long time with consistent and deliberate effort.

Sometimes when we blast through the wall too quickly (or simply get around it) it can create another problem that is also difficult to deal with.

Thoughts?

[Anonymous]

I think that the image of taking apart the wall is very insightful since when it finally comes down to it the only person we can change is ourselves. Fowler doesn’t focus on this idea but in essence that is what his stages of faith are all about, a person taking charge of the issues in their lives and making THEIR decisions to accept or reject, to promote or ignore, and ultimately I suppose to have such a level of acceptance that other people who are trying to keep the wall together are neither rejected nor feared but loved for the honesty in their own hearts.

Working here at StayLDS has sharpened my own understanding of my issues and brought some major fear, for I have managed to move past the historical Joseph Smith errors and virtually all of the historical booby traps but have now run up against my own wall which brings the fear that I really will become apostate because my real issue is with the current leadership and how they are leading the church. I know that is perilously close to wanting to “steady the ark” and get blasted for it but I simply can’t get past what I consider the ultimate arrogance and misuse of resources that things like making us use exactly the same lesson manuals in Sunday School for coming on 12 years. The Church has tremendous resources in excellent researchers and teachers and still we struggle with trying to make these lesson manuals work. The Church has regularly changed the RS and PH manuals why is Sunday School left in the gutter with the left overs? I know it may sound silly but if you are teaching Sunday School or going to Sunday School class you deserve resources that have the potential to open up new insights which gets very hard for adults who have had the same lesson 3 times before.

To my mind, sadly, I think the ultimate responsibility lies with the First Presidency (and here I feel the big finger of Ray about to come down upon my post, trembling I continue very carefully 😯 😈 ) and I worry where that will lead me in the coming few years.

So what happens when you have disassembled the wall to the level that you can and find that suddenly it is folding in on you, trapping and boxing you?

[Anonymous]

Quote:

So what happens when you have disassembled the wall to the level that you can and find that suddenly it is folding in on you, trapping and boxing you?

Realize that you’re not done until the wall is gone. Once the wall is gone, you can make an informed decision totally on your own how to act. So, finish tearing down the wall until it no longer is able to trap and box you – and, remember, in a group it’s not about you.

[Anonymous]

I know what you are saying about it not being about you. I don’t blame any of the members of my ward for thinking the way they do. I love them for who they are, good people doing what they think is right. No problem there at all. But, I could be very mad but still love them if say one of those people all of a sudden told everyone that they had a revelation and the church is all wrong and we had to practice polygamy or you won’t be saved, etc…. or I could still love them if one of them starting sending anti-mormon literature to all of their neighbors which by the way is not a very Christian thing to do. So, I don’t feel like I am thinking about me necessarily, I am trying to get at the truth!!!!! I’m just rambling on trying to get across my thoughts not very well I’m afraid.

[Anonymous]

I understand, peaceandjoy, and I agree.

My advice to people who are struggling is pretty simple – but not at all easy. It requires patience and humility and perseverance, which don’t come naturally to mortals:

Go slowly and finish tearing down the wall. Don’t act in the heat of emotion or when agitated. Figure out what the real issue is for you as an individual, then deal directly with that issue – understanding that the exact issue that is bothering you so much probably will be an issue within ANY organization (religious or not) until it is resolved inside of you.

Let me give you an example, asking as you read it that you don’t jump to conclusions about what I’m trying to say. I really am sharing it to provide a personal example of why I beg people to slow down, be precise, identify their core issues, search actively for reconciliation and ONLY then act:

I know of a man who joined the Church after investigating for a little over a year. He felt God’s love powerfully, and he was embraced by a caring community that truly and sincerely and honestly loved and accepted him. He served in various callings, but he also struggled with certain aspects of our history – particularly issues of authority and how the history is presented. After a couple of decades of struggling internally, he decided these issues were too much to bear – so he left the Church.

In doing so, he left his wife and children (who, in his own words, were wonderful people, loved him regardless of his struggles, supported him all those years as he struggled) and his former religious community (of whom he still talked in loving and praising terms). He said he left because he realized that the LDS Church wasn’t true – wasn’t what it claimed to be.

After a couple of years of misery, he met someone who invited him to sit in an empty church and pray. He did, and felt again the same thing he had felt so many years ago. He married the woman who encouraged him to pray and joined her church after about seven months of study – the Roman Catholic Church.

Please don’t misunderstand; I am NOT saying anything against the RCC in what I am about to say. My point, however, is important:

He couldn’t reconcile his issues with the LDS Church, so he left – shattering his family and abandoning the community that, in his own words, had saved him two decades earlier. In the end, he returned to another community that accepted him – based SOLELY on a powerful spiritual experience that showed him God still loved him. Iow, he traded one religion for another based on experiences that were exactly the same – but in the process he destroyed his family. Also, by the time I heard his story, he had reached the point where he didn’t even feel bad about leaving his family – and where he didn’t even fathom what I’m about to say.

The key for me as I listened to him is that he ultimately joined a religion that has the EXACT same historical issues that caused him to abandon his former religion – only MUCH more severe from an objective, outside perspective. Polygamy vs. The Inquisition; Mountain Meadows Massacre vs. The Crusades; Joseph and Brigham vs. King Popes; etc. Ultimately, looking at it in hindsight, he hadn’t left Mormonism due to his concerns over history; he left because he had allowed himself to obsess over those concerns so much that he HAD to leave to re-establish the peace the LDS Church had provided him previously.

With regard to this post, he didn’t break down his wall; he got rid of it by running away from it. It’s still there; he just isn’t focused on it anymore, due to his new spiritual confirmation that God loves him still. As I listened to him, the thought that struck me HARD is that I hope he never does see it again – because breaking it down now will be MUCH more painful than it would have been to break it down years ago, since he will have to face the results of his running away from the wall previously.

[Anonymous]

Ray, I wholeheartedly agree with you that is why I am staying put right now. I love my family too much to leave them. I can’t even contemplate something like that. Your friend must have had problems with his wife in the first place do you think? Anyway that is beside the point. So I guess what you are saying is that no church is really true and you might as well stick with the one your in so you don’t cause problems? That is what I am thinking right now. There are many different ways to God. That is why I’m willing to stay here with my family and the wonderful, good people that are doing good things. But it is still hard when this church is one of a few that testify that they are the only true church on the face of the earth. That is what I am struggling with.

[Anonymous]

I understand, peaceandjoy. I really do.

Fwiw, I like John Dehlin’s approach and what he started here specifically because it allows people to craft their own definitions of complex terms – like “only true and living” vs. “worship how, where and what they may” – like “exclusive Priesthood authority” vs. “vicarious ordinances” that allow exaltation outside of that authority during mortality. When I have the ability to craft my own religious view according to the dictates of my own conscience (especially in a way that embraces paradox), and when I truly internalize the idea that I can allow other members of my own religious community that same privilege (not just those in other communities), then and only then, imo, am I ready to find the kind of peace and reconciliation that most here seek – wherever that peace might be found.

To me, “breaking down the wall” is all about realizing that I can’t leave because I feel like others have separated me. I can’t act in reaction to my perception of others, the vast majority of whom truly are good, sincere, loving people to the best of their own ability. I only can leave once I have removed any artificial separation and, free from outside forces, choose to walk away without having to climb over anything. My own experiences are the biggest part of my willingness to stay, but I also believe deeply that there is nothing within Mormonism and the LDS Church that is uniquely bad, in and of itself. (Not right? Absolutely. Bad? Yes. Uniquely bad? No. Evil? Absolutely not.) Otoh, I believe there is MUCH within Mormonism and the LDS Church that is uniquely good, in and of itself. However, that’s just me – and it is a personal conclusion based on many, many years of contemplation and observation.

I’m going to add a comment to the old “true and living” thread that I haven’t shared here – largely because it’s a more controversial interpretation of that term than the vast majority of members would feel comfortable reading, so I keep it to myself almost always. I just feel like it is appropriate now.

[Anonymous]

Peaceandjoy wrote:

I am trying to get at the truth!!!!!

Peaceandjoy,

I’m just curious. Can you give me an example of a “truth” that your trying to “get at”?

What’s an example of a truth you can know — with absolute certainty — and by what means would you know it?

I’m not messing w/ you here….I’ve been thinking a lot about “finding truth” lately.

Please help if you can.

John Dehlin

[Anonymous]

This is really hard to explain.

With absolute certainty I have prayed and had prayers answered to those prayers about God and Jesus Christ. That they are real. I have prayed to know whether the church is true but no answer. So, I know that I should be able to get an answer, so why haven’t I. The only answer I can come up with is that it isn’t the true church.

I guess the one truth i am trying to get at is why are we here???? (Does that sound familiar?) What are we suppose to be doing while we are here???

I’d like to believe that Heavenly Father does have a plan. I would like to know what that plan is. I want to die and know that I did the right things. So, God won’t say what the heck were you thinking???? So, right now I believe that if I am kind and loving to others and accept them as they are, not judging, serve them when they need it and just be a good person, then that is what God wants me to do because that is the way he lived his life while one this earth.

But the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Saints claims to be that one true church and I look at the founder of it and say Yikes!

And since I have a lovely family that I love, I will stay with the mormon church and worship the best way I can.

But I still get frustrated with it and that is why I come here, hoping for some magic answer, I guess.

Sorry, this is very simplistic but there you go.

[Anonymous]

I hate to be simplistic too, but…

Maybe the answer to your question is your question. 😳

I feel pretty strongly that the reason that we’re here is to learn. Learn to love the way God loves us. Learn to make our presence be an uplifting experience for all who come into contact with us. Not because we try to control what those around us think or feel of us. Rather, to sincerely radiate the light and the hope that comes from inside us. Learn to not be affected by the turmoil of life whether it’s other people or our own situation. What better model for others than for the one to be a light in the dark night, a hope in despair, joy in sorrow, peace in turmoil.

We can learn to live in this way, positively touching the lives of others, while not being sucked into their drama. We can learn to love, comfort, mourn, care for, share, and give without expecting anything in return. And, most importantly, without expecting that our actions and intentions be noticed or validated or appreciated. We act out of love. We feel that love and share it freely. But it is our own, it comes from inside each of us individually and whether it is reciprocated, acknowledged, rejected, or otherwise, we do not care. For it is the sharing, the honest, loving, hopeful sharing that we extend, and we will not be affected by how it is received.

The wall spoken of in this thread, is the system that nearly all human communities build. And, that each individual in that community builds. It is to guard against rejection. To shield from the mocking “other”. To protect our inner-lives, so they won’t be trampled, or wounded, or frowned upon, or denigrated. But, we don’t have to build the wall. We build it because we are too concerned with what others think of us. What others might say about us, if they knew the “real” us.

So, I see the breaking down of the wall as something that may even transcend what the others have said. Why can’t we believe that the church is “true” but only in the sense that is satisfying to our own definition?

I’m not saying that it is prudent to share in fast and testimony meeting your own personal truth. But, one need not be ashamed of it either. At least, in the quiet confines of the heart. Being true to yourself, to your heart, to the light inside and being honest in your own inner-life, to yourself, is the key. The world, the church, the ward, the family, may all be calling for an outward expression that fits the preconceived image of loyalty, or fidelity. This is important to them so they will know how high to build their wall, where to reinforce it, where to patch it up. But, their wall is of no concern to me. I will live without a wall. It is seen as dangerous, rebellious. But, I have an ace that trumps them all. I don’t care what they think. I have God on my side.

[Anonymous]

That was great Swimordie.

In addition to the question being your answer, it seems also like you already have a good idea what God wants you to do (being kind and loving, etc.).

I also had this thought/recommendation as I was pondering your question Peaceandjoy: Perhaps the problem is your question. How is God supposed to answer the question “Is the Church true?” I know this is common in the LDS Church, but think about it. We are asking for a yes/no (true/false) answer to a very complex question. It’s sort of like asking if an ham sandwich is true. Is a ham sandwich true? How does someone answer that? A ham sandwich will do a lot of things for you. It will stop your hunger pains. It will nourish you … but you will eventually die of malnutrition if you only eat the one true ham sandwich. Was your ham sandwich made in a clean kitchen with quality ingredients? Anyway … I don’t want to go crazy with the comparison. It’s a hard question to answer with yes or no.

For the Church being True, what does that mean? There are as many variations of what people mean by “the Church” as there are people that try to experience the Church. If God answers “Yes” does that mean that every single concept you have of the Gospel, right now in time, that you have learned is absolutely true and unchanging? A lot of your conception is probably very good. Some of it is probably wrong. Most of it will change over time. So is the answer yes or no right now?

Again, I know it is very common in the Church for a lot of active members to say they “know the Church is true.” They had a spiritual confirmation experience probably too. We here are those oddballs that are wired to question and ask “ok, what does that answer mean though.” I don’t hold it against other people … but I am not sure their answer means what they think it means. It isn’t for me to tell them either. That is just my viewpoint.

To me, their answer means “this is where you should be right now, and I will make you feel good about it to answer your question.” It doesn’t mean that every aspect of the Church experience for them is an absolute factual and historically true statement, and expresses the a perfect understanding in all clarity of God’s will for all people in all situations.

[Anonymous]

Swim,

YES,YES,YES You’re good! I woke up at 3:30 this morning thinking about this. What you said is pretty much what I have been thinking about. Except you said it a whole lot better than I ever would have. Thank you so much.

I also like what Valoel said on the thread “The one and only TRUE church” He said that God placed me into a Mormon life. I have benefited from it, I enjoy it etc… Why not Judaism etc…. because God led me to Mormonism and I can take truth from wherever I find it. I also like what you said about doing these things out of love without expecting our actions and intentions to be noticed or validated. That is one I’m really working on that is very, very hard. And I also do worry about what others think about me. I think most people do to a certain extent, but another thing to work on.

We all have such diverse paths, each one so different and that is ok. I may not agree with you on a lot of things, but that is ok. I still believe that not one Religion is absolutely true (and my thoughts might change) but I can’t judge anyone else and what they think is true or right.

I have been so negative lately about the history and different doctrine about the church. I don’t like being like that but I know that I have to go through that process to get where I am now. I know that I’m not at the end, I have to keep removing those bricks as Ray would say. Because I’m sure I will have negative thoughts again. But if I can live like you said within the Mormon church then I think I can find that peace and joy that I am looking for.

[Anonymous]

Hey Valoel,

We must have been posting at the same time because I didn’t read your post until after I posted mine. I agreed with everything you said but I’m not sure what this sentence means??

Quote:

If God answers “Yes” does that mean that every single concept you have of the Gospel, right now in time, that you have learned is absolutely true and unchanging? A lot of your conception is probably very good. Some of it is probably wrong. Most of it will change over time. So is the answer yes or no right now?

Do you mean that I will find more truth in the Mormon church eventually????

[Anonymous]

Peaceandjoy wrote:

Do you mean that I will find more truth in the Mormon church eventually????

If you search for truth, you will find it. I point back to John’s question a few responses back, what are you looking for? Can you give a more clear example besides a broad term such as “truth?” The meaning and definition of that word has been debated for thousands of years.

Let’s try something different. Pretend you are God, and Peaceandjoy is praying to you to know the if the Church is true (“to get to the truth”). How would you answer that question? Why would you answer the way you do?

I’ll give an example of what I am thinking:

Suppose someone in 1870 prayed to know if the LDS Church was true. Within their mind, they have a conception of what “the Church” means. It is a container idea for a lot of facts and beliefs. This one person who is praying thinks “the Church” teaches

“The Church” equals

1. God exists

2. Jesus Christ is the Savior

3. The only way to be saved is through the atonement of Jesus Christ

4. The greatest commandment is to love God and love their neighbor as their self, and they want to serve God and make the world a beautiful place of peace.

5. They have to practice polygamy righteously to enter the Celestial Kingdom.

6. They were listening to Brigham Young who told them no man will ever set foot on the moon.

7. The second coming will happen in the next 10 years (let’s say before 1880).

This person prays to know if “the Church” is true, which is a yes/no question. How does God answer that? How would you answer this question (having your modern perspective on these facts)? Remember, you are restricted to answer the question with only three responses:

1. Make the person feel good.

2. Make the person feel bad.

3. Don’t answer the question.

[Anonymous]

Okay I think I get what you are saying or maybe not. You are saying I need to be more specific in what I pray for? Because you’re right God couldn’t answer if the church was true in a broad sense.

But I have prayed for specific things. I have prayed about Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and I know that they are there. And I have been directed in my dealings with friends, and family in ways to be of service to them.

I have specifically prayed to know whether Joseph Smith was a prophet and have had a bad feeling about that. So, I guess now is not the time for that answer or I would think the answer is that he was not a prophet. But someone else will get different answers to these different questions.

You could do this with any religion though. In the Catholic church you could pray to know whether God is there? You could pray to know whether the Pope is the religious leader for the world at this time? Or could pray whether you should go to Mass every Sunday and different people will get different answers to those questions.

So, that is why I believe there are different paths to God. And I was directed to the Mormon church for whatever reason. Here in the Mormon church is where I should be for my growth and maybe I can be of service to others along the way and they to me.

[Author]

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