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I think there are some people who take great comfort in being able to have an earthly object of veneration and inspiration – both in Mormonism and among the Gentiles.
You may be on to something. Many of the OT religions worshiped idols. Then catholicism converts them and begrudgingly allows some of their old habits to help smooth the transition. Are we really so different with our prophets and temples? It feels pretty good to lay your hands on something solid.
Somewhat related – this is why I believe that missionaries ask investigators to pray over the BOM, rather than JS, or the church, or priesthood restoration. The BOM is not a concept. The BOM can be held in your hands and as a book could be fiction or non-fiction, true or untrue. The rest of it often gets shoehorned onto the back of the BOM answer to prayer.
My $.02
cwald wrote:I’m not blaming the Q15 for it necessarily.
cwald… that’s a generous attitude, and for the most part I agree. Yet, I believe you and I both find the 14F to be one of the worst constructs in our Mormon lexicon and keep waiting for the leaders at the top of the Church to refute it… but only crickets… In other words, I think some blame does rest with them.Old-Timer wrote:People have heard that church leaders “are Christ” to us? Seriously?
[
Admin note: Please don’t refer to church leaders using names that read as sarcastic or dismissive, even if they aren’t meant that way. Pres. Monson is not “Tommy Monson” anywhere but in the stories he tells of his childhood. This request is simple common courtesy.] I apologize if this is directed at me for using Elder Uchtdorf’s name in the Hail Mary. I didn’t mean it to be derogatory toward him
at allalthough I can see how it could be read with more tone than I intended. I was making the point that we have criticized other faiths for turning men (or women) into idols and yet commit the very same kind of idolatry ourselves to some degree.
mercyngrace wrote:I was making the point that we have criticized other faiths for turning men (or women) into idols and yet commit the very same kind of idolatry ourselves to some degree.
I agree with you. There was a recent talk (maybe it was around TSM’s birthday?) given by a GA that was nothing but praise for TSM. I don’t deny he’s a good man nor do I deny he is rightly president of the church, holds and can exercise all the keys, etc. It just struck me when I heard it as very close to worshiping him. I’ll try to find the link.
I think this is a pretty good example of people who are trying to be so committed, they take things too far in their expressions in testimonies and should be reigned in by any leader needing to clarify true doctrine. Perhaps there is a point where one can view the brethren as a “type” of Christ to us, but no more so than the Relief Society President or the Weblos scout leader whose hands are the hands of Christ in touching our lives.
But I would never see a leader stating it is our doctrine that they are Christ to us. Nor that we go through them to get to Christ. Nor that we cannot have a personal relationship with Christ. That would never be accepted as doctrine by leaders, I don’t think.
However, the devotion this person is suggesting in their testimony by putting the brethren in such high regard, that is respected by so many people in the church, way more so than people who would challenge or criticize them, which is not acceptable to most in the church. But the over-zealous professions would need to be reigned in to be in line with true mormon doctrine.
I think there is a fine line that we often cross. We have pegged the prophet as infallible, for example.
“Follow the prophet, don’t go astray. Follow the prophet, he knows the way.”While certainly I hope that the prophet knows the way, his arm of flesh is no substitute for my own inner compass and received personal revelations except where it comes to the administration of church governance. Even then, he is still mortal and very much subject to error.
The notion that we should only trust our own spiritual knowledge if it aligns with statements from the church office building, for example, is alive and well. While this isn’t as offensive verbally as saying “The prophet and apostles are Christ to us”, the sentiment is the same. We are setting these individuals up as idols and prioritizing their words above the words that come from God via the Holy Ghost. It’s not just offensive, it’s dangerous, and spiritually stunting.
eta: I don’t say this as a reflection of where our true doctrine is but of where our culture is. That said, a solid argument could be made, in spite of existing quotes to the contrary, that we are creating
at leasta de facto worship of our general leadership. mercyngrace wrote:While certainly I hope that the prophet knows the way, his arm of flesh is no substitute for my own inner compass and received personal revelations except where it comes to the administration of church governance.
Primary songs can be useful for stage 2 or stage 3 members. But they don’t really hold up to our experience in the world, do they? They don’t for me. I don’t think that the prophet knows “THE WAY” (because I have rejected the idea there is only one way) … but I do think the prophet can know of “one way”, and that within the church, that becomes the accepted way for the correlation of members. And I whole-heartily agree it is not substitution for the individual’s inner compass. I have had a hard time expressing this to others without sounding like a heretic.
My problem is I don’t have a very good working inner compass. My compass has failed me at times, as I learn. So I think there is wisdom to seek directions from wise prophets and visionaries. When they conflict with my compass, I think through whether I think my compass needs adjusting, or whether I need to have faith in God’s promises to lead me and to follow my compass. Sometimes I benefit from being humble to adjust my views. Sometimes I benefit from standing up for what I believe. Dismissing my views to obey the arm of flesh, even the prophets, just doesn’t always feel right to me. Dismissing the prophet to obey my views doesn’t always stretch my views, I don’t think.
I think that is what I hear you saying MNG, that when people take it too far…the wisdom from prophets becomes the substitute for thinking…that’s when they’ve gone too far…and yet…it seems to be respected at church when people express it, even if at a doctrinal level I don’t think any leader would say it is what we teach. Heck, I just previewed the 14 fundamentals again…and there is a lot in those 14 fundamentals I don’t like…but it never goes that far as to say the prophet is Christ for us. So people hear the messages at church like the 14 fundamentals…and they misunderstand it and go too far with it…and they need to be reigned in.
If they aren’t taught by church leaders to reign it in, perhaps God lets them experience a faith crisis to help them understand true doctrine better. I wish the church would do more to help people avoid some painful crises which sometimes seem avoidable with more balanced, practical, and deep teaching (more meat, less milk).
mercyngrace wrote:We are setting these individuals up as idols and prioritizing their words above the words that come from God via the Holy Ghost.
Well said. And I think I hear that at church all too much as well. And yet, that can’t be what the church teaches when we hear Moroni 10 quoted all the time. If the members take that approach, they are exactly doing what you said…idol worshipping.
I feel many times I am more prone to challenge or question the leaders, and not take them at face value. And yet, that is not received well at church. I more often hear people say, “The leaders are fallible, but for me…I’m better off just obeying them because they so rarely are.” I think that response is just a lazy way for members to play the probabilities in following the prophet who is mostly right, and run the danger of truly growing their own personal revelation and experiencing more out of life.
On Own Now wrote:cwald wrote:I’m not blaming the Q15 for it necessarily.
cwald… that’s a generous attitude, and for the most part I agree. Yet, I believe you and I both find the 14F to be one of the worst constructs in our Mormon lexicon and keep waiting for the leaders at the top of the Church to refute it… but only crickets… In other words, I think some blame does rest with them.Good point.
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Heber, I’ve given up sounding like anything
buta Heretic. LOL. I find great value in the words of inspired individuals – living and dead. It’s the ‘taking it too far’ which just drives me to distraction.
:sick: Fwiw, I agree with pretty much everything that has been said since my last comment. 🙂 MercyNGrace, I greatly value your words of inspiration. Thanks for being here 
Old-Timer wrote:[
Admin note: Please don’t refer to church leaders using names that read as sarcastic or dismissive, even if they aren’t meant that way. Pres. Monson is not “Tommy Monson” anywhere but in the stories he tells of his childhood. This request is simple common courtesy.] I apologize for referring to the current leadership as “Tommy Monson and his buddies.” From now on, I will only refer to him as
“Thomas Spencer Monson, President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and a Prophet, Seer and Revelator, and the only one on earth authorized to exercise all Priesthood keys.”
[Note: when he refers to himself as Tommy Monson, it’s hard to not jump in and take that to heart, since it’s fairly rare, in my experience, for a member of the Q15 to actually humanize themselves rather than the opposite – I wish I could call them “Brother Tommy” or “Brother Dallin” like the early Saints referred to “Brother Joseph”]
Kumahito wrote:Old-Timer wrote:[
Admin note: Please don’t refer to church leaders using names that read as sarcastic or dismissive, even if they aren’t meant that way. Pres. Monson is not “Tommy Monson” anywhere but in the stories he tells of his childhood. This request is simple common courtesy.] I apologize for referring to the current leadership as “Tommy Monson and his buddies.” From now on, I will only refer to him as
“Thomas Spencer Monson, President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and a Prophet, Seer and Revelator, and the only one on earth authorized to exercise all Priesthood keys.”[Note: when he refers to himself as Tommy Monson, it’s hard to not jump in and take that to heart, since it’s fairly rare, in my experience, for a member of the Q15 to actually humanize themselves rather than the opposite – I wish I could call them “Brother Tommy” or “Brother Dallin” like the early Saints referred to “Brother Joseph”]
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About a year ago, I was at a conference and noted that the presenter was someone whose work I was familiar with and had admired. (I won’t mention his name because he’s someone no one here will have heard of). However, I was starstruck and quickly went up to the front after his presentation to shake his hand. He was very polite and talked with me for some minutes about a topic of common interest to both of us. Afterwards, I couldn’t stop myself from gushing about the interaction to my companion (who wondered what the big deal was). Why do I mention this? Because I think what we’re really talking about in this thread is “celebrity worship” and every facet of society suffers from it (if “suffer” is the correct verb). We love putting people up on a pedestal (and sometimes knocking them off it). I have no problem with giving people the respect that they deserve. However, I resist making ordinary mortals into superstars be they of the athletic variety, the intellectual variety or the spiritual variety. That said, I am not immune to the kind of veneration that creates “brethrenites.” Perhaps none of us are.
DarkJedi wrote:I agree with you. There was a recent talk (maybe it was around TSM’s birthday?) given by a GA that was nothing but praise for TSM. I don’t deny he’s a good man nor do I deny he is rightly president of the church, holds and can exercise all the keys, etc. It just struck me when I heard it as very close to worshiping him. I’ll try to find the link.
OK, found it, here it is:
http://www.lds.org/church/news/elder-walker-shares-five-ways-to-be-like-president-monson?lang=eng&query=life+of+president+monson ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.lds.org/church/news/elder-walker-shares-five-ways-to-be-like-president-monson?lang=eng&query=life+of+president+monson
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