Bushman Book

[Anonymous]

FaithfulSkeptic wrote:

Welcome back, Rob! And thanks for posting that quote from William Marks, Roy. I hadn’t heard of that before.

Quote:

Smith said: “We are a ruined people…this doctrine of polygamy, or Spiritual-wife System, …taught and practiced among us, will prove our destruction and overthrow. I have been deceived…it is wrong; it is a curse to mankind, and we shall have to leave the United States soon, unless it can be put down, and its practice stopped in the Church.”

Whether JS ever said those words or not is up for debate, but polygamy has alway been one of the biggest issues for me to overcome in my faith crisis. But it is now one of many things that deeply trouble me about the church.

I’ve started reading Rough Stone Rolling a couple times, but got bogged down about 1/3 of the way through and never finished it. I’m just going to have to plow through and finish it some day.

RSR is a big book. Like I said above, I think Bushman downplayed the plural marriage stuff, but he didn’t ignore it. Another good contemporary book is Greg Princes biography of David O. Mckay. Both of those books are big,…the latter one is REALLY big (meaning you ain’t gunna finish it in an afternoon).

I’ve also found some writings by a guy named Ken Clark. What he has written (that which I’ve read) is not nasty and mean–but it follows and expounds some of the CES letter stuff. His discussion about “loyalty” trumping honesty makes sooooooo much sense to me. For example, I know that the GAs close ranks when one of their members is put in trouble. Paul Dunn seems to be an exception–he was thrown to the wolves. But, Bruce McConkie was someone who was protected when he published the Mormon Doctrine book against the wishes of McKay and others (See Princes book on that). Instead of yanking it from the shelves and telling Bruce NEVER again,..and actually perhaps making corrections then and there, they closed ranks.

A lot of this “loyalty” stuff came up in Bushman’s book. The important thing to JS appears to have been loyalty to your brethren, even at the expense of lots of other things. The fact that Bushman points this out makes other things I’ve read more clear, such as the alleged slandering threats made by Hyrum and Joseph when some of the women that were propositioned intended to disclose the matter publicly. They were kept quiet by having their reputations thrown into dispute and being ostracized in a tight community like Nauvoo was.

One of the things I’m learning is that the more I learn, the more the pieces seem to fit together in a tight jig-saw puzzle. I read a while ago about the slander threats attributed to Joseph and Hyrum, and I thought,…no way. But, the closing ranks idea IS supported by Bushman, and it REALLY is supported by Prince.

You can’t just ignore this stuff. At least I can’t.

[Anonymous]

Oh,…and after I finish this next one, I think I’m gunna try some of D. Michael Quinn. See where that leads….

[Anonymous]

rob4hope1 wrote:

I recall that when JS sent the copy-right to Canada (I think that was the story) and it all failed, didn’t he ask God about this–and wasn’t the answer: “Some revelations are from God, some from men, and some from the devil.” If that is the case, and clearly in this case THE PROPHET was led by a false revelation, then how can we be so sure that everything after this was exclusively from God? In large measure, that is one the main discussion points of this site.

This whole idea about revelations coming from multiple sources opens up a whole interesting and possibly freeing discussion about what really comes from God and what doesn’t. I’ve heard so many stories about “I heard a voice”. And yet, how in the world do you know the source of that voice?–your mind, your television you didn’t know was on, your dead uncle who is a jokester and likes to mess with you, some devil from the 3rd hell of perditions frozen ice, or God?

Just for clarification the revelation to go to Canada was recently discovered and released in the JS papers project. It includes disclaimers such that the copyright would sell IF the sellers went with their eye single to the glory of God and IF the potential buyers softened their hearts to the enticings of the spirit. The quote about some revelations coming from the Devil came from David Whitmer many years after the event and after he had been exed from the church – It is therefore not a great source for Joseph’s actual words. http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Attempt_to_sell_copyright

But generally yes, That is a good example. Hyrum hears that people up in Canada will buy book copyrights. He asks JS to pray to God about it. JS does and produces a revelation leading them to believe that they will be successful as long as certain conditions are met. They are not successful and JS must try to figure out why.

The Kirtland bank failure/scandal was another example. JS seemed to make strong assurances that God would ensure the success of the venture.

Zion’s camp is another example. Section 103 sounds like God is going to do something miraculous to restore the LDS of Missouri to their homes (pillar of fire maybe?). When the camp was unsuccessful in their stated purpose Joseph is left grasping at straws to determine why the promises went unfulfilled. A second revelation comes in section 105 and says that the camp failed because 1) the LDS did not do a good enough job of living the law of consecration, 2) the elders were not yet ready as they needed to be “endowed with power” first, and 3) because the churches abroad did not sufficiently heed to call to send money and men to Zion’s camp.

Section 105 adds it’s own set of unfulfilled promises as it states that God has unleashed the destroyer “to destroy and lay waste mine enemies; and not many years hence they shall not be left to pollute mine heritage, and to blaspheme my name upon the lands which I have consecrated for the gathering together of my saints.” I know that some see the carnage of the civil war as a fulfillment of this revelation but I see that as a stretch.

Essentially JS repeatedly promises that the saints will be successful because God is with them and then they fail. Each time JS did not seem to see the failure coming. He either believed his own/God’s promises on the subject or was portraying an exaggerated sense of confidence to bolster his supporters.

[Anonymous]

I either heard it in an interview or read it in, “On the Road with Joseph Smith,” Bushman’s short memoir about writing RSR – that he regretted his treatment of polygamy in RSR. The feeling I got was that he wished he had devoted more space to it. Not because he was going to talk it up as being wonderful for all involved, but because it was a bigger aspect of the story than RSR indicates.

Personally, even though I have respect and affection for Richard Bushman, I’m okay with him having left it where he did. He’s of the mindset that Section 132 logically prevents LDS men, or at least him, from rejecting mortal polygamy on its face. And to my mind, what the church really needs is for men to question this.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Roy. The details were elusive.

One of the things I find interesting (and kindof disconcerting) is the nature of revelation. Specifically it is this:

[Anonymous]

And,…back as “Rob4Hope”….

[Anonymous]

rob4hope1 wrote:

Thanks Roy. The details were elusive.

One of the things I find interesting (and kindof disconcerting) is the nature of revelation. Specifically it is this:

if the revelation comes to pass, its because God wanted it and you fulfilled what you were supposed to…..

if the revelation DOESNT come to pass, its because God wanted it, but you just didn’t have enough faith…..

This type of theme did present itself in the Bushman book because JS was often confused by what happened. Its almost like JS would get another revelation to place an apologetic spin on the previous revelation that didn’t happen.

But I don’t like this trend, because it enthrones revelatory declarations at the expense of discerning criticism when warranted IMHO. For example, I know a LGBT man who would wrestle and pine with statement from Elder Packer. If this man had enough faith, or prayed enough, or just read enough scriptures (or whatever on and on and on), then God would fix “what is broken”, and he would be normal.

And, here is the contraposition that makes a mess of things.

Because this man wasn’t fixed, clearly he didn’t have enough faith in the first place.

See the trap?

So, instead of questioning the validity of the revelatory declaration in the first place, we self blame for not having enough faith.

What a horrible trap, and how sad.

Mix that all up with the loyalty at the expense of honesty, and you have a mix for trouble. Bushman set a precedence for both IMHO with the disclosures of this book.

I wholeheartedly agree with the premise you’re making here, and the “not praying enough” or “not praying with enough faith” or “not having enough faith” or “not having enough faith to get your answers from the scriptures of GC” and on an on creates the greatest angst and personal damnation amongst those who believe it. “Yet such was I! Oh! such was I!” (Marley’s ghost).

Looking at “conflicting” revelations, I think it’s very possible Joseph really didn’t know what was going on. Yeah, there was the first vision and Moroni’s visits, but I think most of his revelation came the same way the rest of us get revelation. And, I can envision his dictation of revelations being a combination of things that include either trying to but feelings and impressions into words where words don’t really exist and that it might work much like giving a priesthood blessing – he spoke the words but they weren’t necessarily directly from God. Just my 2 cents worth, but it is possible his revelations are not what many believe they are/were. I’m also not sure Bushman could have articulated that idea or if he even believes that.

[Anonymous]

One item I plan on doing before I “come out” is reading and studying the BOM and take Moroni’s promise to task.

I am going to do my very best to try to ask God.

I am quite sure if I don’t get a confirmation that there will be those that say, “well you just didn’t try enough / have enough faith.” I am worried that this may be something that pushes my button enough that I may not be 100% nice. I assume I would try to calmly say, “I have been trying for almost 40 years and I asked understanding that my savlation is on the line. What more do I have to do?”

Or I might ask them to give me direction for a scenario. A friend of mine has grown up as a Jehovah’s Witness all of his life. Now that he is in his late 40’s and has been a good Witness, but just can’t seem to feel that God is telling him that Jehovah’s Witness is where he wants him to be. He as been intensely asking God to tell him that his religon is true. But he has no answer and he is worried there may be somewhere else that God would want him to be. He is worried his time on earth is running out and he wants to do what God tells him. What should he do? I am sure many are going to see that I am trying to have them think from a different perspective what “I” should do.

[Anonymous]

LookingHard wrote:

One item I plan on doing before I “come out” is reading and studying the BOM and take Moroni’s promise to task.

I am going to do my very best to try to ask God.

I am quite sure if I don’t get a confirmation that there will be those that say, “well you just didn’t try enough / have enough faith.” I am worried that this may be something that pushes my button enough that I may not be 100% nice. I assume I would try to calmly say, “I have been trying for almost 40 years and I asked understanding that my savlation is on the line. What more do I have to do?”

Or I might ask them to give me direction for a scenario. A friend of mine has grown up as a Jehovah’s Witness all of his life. Now that he is in his late 40’s and has been a good Witness, but just can’t seem to feel that God is telling him that Jehovah’s Witness is where he wants him to be. He as been intensely asking God to tell him that his religon is true. But he has no answer and he is worried there may be somewhere else that God would want him to be. He is worried his time on earth is running out and he wants to do what God tells him. What should he do? I am sure many are going to see that I am trying to have them think from a different perspective what “I” should do.

LH…I’m not picking on you, so take this with “tongue and cheek”.

Ah…he just needs to have more faith!

[Anonymous]

I’ve got and started the next book “Insiders View…” and it is about what I expected.

But, some of the questions are good ones….just saying.

I don’t know yet if I will start a new thread, or it this whole thread should be moved until the title: “Some books and what they do!”….

Anyway,…interesting posts coming.

[Anonymous]

Well….”Insiders View”. Lots of discussions about this and quite interesting.

The Book of Mormon translation is particularly interesting. The parallels with the Bible, right down the line. I haven’t heard anything mentioned about the Chiasmas and all of that, but haven’t gotten that far.

You know, the Kinderhook stuff is devastating to my testimony….just devastating.

[Anonymous]

[Admin Note]: If you want a discussion about a new book, start a new thread about it. It is much easier that way for people who just read to find it of they are looking for something about that book.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

[Admin Note]: If you want a discussion about a new book, start a new thread about it. It is much easier that way for people who just read to find it of they are looking for something about that book.

Understood Ray. My post above was a musing only….

[Author]

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