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So we all know that saying from Christ that “by their fruits ye shall know them”. Here’s the quote: “15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”
The thought occurred to me yesterday, what exactly are the fruits? If we go with what is produced from a prophet, there is no prophet on earth who ONLY produces good fruit. Do the people the church produces count as the fruits of the prophet? No one is perfect and there are plenty of ‘bad fruits’ that come from the church, but also plenty good fruits. But according to the saying, a good tree can’t produce bad fruit and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. But we see dishonest prophets produce good people sometimes.
If what works a prophet does, count as their fruit, that’s a tough one too. The prophets of the church have done some good stuff, but they have also done some bad stuff (the november policy, lgbt suicides possibly linked to it, being secretive about their finances isn’t so great, not apologizing for mistakes, etc.) So does that make them “good trees” or “bad trees”? I realized it’s a very black and white statement for Christ to make. Maybe it wasn’t meant to be so black and white, but may be more of a generalization? I was also pondering on whether it could be applied to things other than prophets. Anyway, just some thoughts I thought I would share, and see if you guys had any interesting input or ideas on this saying as well. Hope you have all been well!
I like to apply this allegory to the effects of teachings on your life, instead of about a person as a whole. People are a mix of good and bad, but if what they teach has a strong bias towards good or bad results when you personally follow it, you have a clear idea whether you should continue to listen or disregard what they have to say. This allegory isn’t religious in scope, either. It’s common sense. Do what works for you. Stop what doesn’t. Don’t listen to people who insist you do what doesn’t work for you.
I don’t think the Q15 are exempt from this. Some of their teachings can have very negative effects on people’s lives. Common sense suggests such teachings are best disregarded.
The allegory of the vineyard in Jacob 5 says clearly that the good and the bad will exist on the trees right up until the end – and that includes in the LDS Church, based on the wording. I like that view MUCH better than the black-and-white, all good or all bad idea. It makes sense, while the extreme statements don’t.
Ray mentioned the allegory I had in mind also, as I just was studying that this week and had those same thoughts. As I thought about fruit…I thought to myself that sometimes we complicate it too much.
Judge them by their fruits. So…when they are good fruits…good…that is what we judge by.
We do not need to over analyze if they ever produced a bad fruit at some point in their lives, or even if they seem to have indications bad fruit may possibly be produced if it keeps growing the way it looks like it is growing now.
In other words…more staying in the moment. Joseph Smith produced a lot of good fruit. Period. Of that good fruit…I can digest that.
Then he produced bad fruit at some points too. For that, I reject and toss out, or burn or whatever. Just…the idea isn’t that one can only produce good fruit or bad fruit. But…we are judged by the fruit we produce…all of it. Some good, some bad. A bad fruit doesn’t negate all the good ones.
But…if there is so much bad fruit I start to learn the odds of tasting the next fruit is too risky it will be bad and I’m not up for that…then I stop tasting it. But as long as there is enough good to keep trying the fruit….I keep at it…accepting the reality some grapes will be sour. But…the sweet ones are good enough to keep going to the tree.
The church, and Joseph Smith, really have a lot of good fruit to be judged by. I cling to that view, even while I totally can understand and respect others that don’t care for it anymore.
ydeve wrote:
This allegory isn’t religious in scope, either. It’s common sense. Do what works for you. Stop what doesn’t. Don’t listen to people who insist you do what doesn’t work for you.
Well said, oh wise one!! (bowing to you)
:ugeek: It sounds like a scripture that could often be used to self-confirm your own beliefs, while rejecting that which runs contrary to it. I feel confident that the “bad fruits” you describe aren’t “bad fruits” in their eyes, or in the eyes of most of the TBM membership. A better question, I think, is how to determine whether a fruit is good or bad. Wonderful “fruits” can come from not-so-good people, and “rotten fruit” can sometimes come from good, well-meaning people. Lemony Snicket wrote:“People aren’t either wicked or noble. They’re like chef’s salads, with good things and bad things chopped and mixed together in a vinaigrette of confusion and conflict.”
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