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In the rock, paper, scissors of revelation and sexism, my experience is that sexism limits revelation. hawkgrrrl wrote:In the rock, paper, scissors of revelation and sexism, my experience is that sexism limits revelation.
:thumbup: I wish there was a better word. Obliviousness doesn’t scream “sexism.” To get revelation you have to be thinking about something/someone. If there’s been no pressure to put yourself in the other’s shoes, or no structure that solicits the input of the other, it
wouldtake God and lightning bolts and whatnot. We’ve been told that’s not the way he usually works. Regarding the policy: I’m not getting the “if health and safety of others is at risk.” What’s an example? I’m not necessarily suspicious, maybe just dense tonight.
mom3 wrote:Sheldon – As a woman. And a woman who has two daughters – your crack is insulting.
The rape problem is a nasty nightmare on tons of college’s religious or not.
Even if God himself spoke – people will make their own decisions.
Don’t add to grief and pain with cowardly tripe.
That makes you part of the problem. Not the solution.
Your reaction made me a bit confused. I have read it a few times.Are you saying, “what does revelation have to do with it? The human beings that lead the university should be able to figure this out with their own brains!”
I am asking for understanding as I respect all of your posts and I am usually right there with you. I am coming to terms that there are times that as a half century old white guy that I am blind to some things. The only way I can learn is to try and figure out when someone says something that makes no sense to me.
mom3 wrote:Sheldon – As a woman. And a woman who has two daughters – your crack is insulting.
The rape problem is a nasty nightmare on tons of college’s religious or not.
Even if God himself spoke – people will make their own decisions.
Don’t add to grief and pain with cowardly tripe.
That makes you part of the problem. Not the solution.
As a father of 3 daughter, two of which went to BYU, I expected something more for a University lead by Prophets Seers and Revelators. I expected BYU to be better than all the other universities, as they would have the inspiration to be a leader in women’s rights. Yet in spite the inspired leadership, BYU was worse than most universities, not better! We either have 15 Prophets Seers and Revelators, or we don’t. Show me the money!
Quote:“what does revelation have to do with it? The human beings that lead the university should be able to figure this out with their own brains!”
LH pretty much.
Sheldon –
Quote:As a father of 3 daughter, two of which went to BYU, I expected something more for a University lead by Prophets Seers and Revelators. I expected BYU to be better than all the other universities, as they would have the inspiration to be a leader in women’s rights. Yet in spite the inspired leadership, BYU was worse than most universities, not better! We either have 15 Prophets Seers and Revelators, or we don’t. Show me the money!
I will let our conversation on this stand at your above comment. People have had God in multiple forms all their lives and they still do stupid. I sensed no feelings of compassion for the victims in your initial statement. Perhaps I was wrong.
Sheldon wrote:Yet in spite the inspired leadership, BYU was worse than most universities, not better!
I’d disagree it is worse than most.
I don’t think that because revelation exists, there is a blank canvas in the temple that Jesus writes on and the prophets go read it to know what to do.
It is wrong to think BYU is the true university, and therefore has no problems (so the individuals in these cases must be the problem), and it is a mistake to assume that because things happen at BYU there is no revelation. Just as it is a mistake to think God is telling Kalani Sitake which plays to run on 3rd down for the victory over all other heathen schools.
I’m glad changes are happening. They have a long way to go. BYU is a great school, one of the best for my money. My experience there, and my kids that have been there, make me proud of the school in many ways…I hope my younger 2 get to go.
It’s not all bad, or all good. If my kids got scholarships to Princeton…you would bet your booty they’d be going to NJ…there are way better schools. But it is NOT worse than most.
They are figuring stuff out as they go…with good intentions and naivete that limits their revelation because God seems to work that way…and it often takes time to correct mistakes. But it progresses. Their mission and purpose is true. They often don’t know know what they don’t know. I strongly believe it progresses precisely because people are standing up to be heard and not put up with it. The women voicing things around this situation is critical to get new revelation. Revelation is perhaps being given more clearly to the women who see what is going on rather than the priesthood that is limited by sexism and other personal limitations. Revelation is available to all. Policy is changed by authority only.
Sheldon wrote:Show me the money!
Tuition rates for the quality of education…it’s there…it is
shownThat may be another story…the story here is change to protect our daughters.
mom3 wrote:The rape problem is a nasty nightmare on tons of college’s religious or not.
This is the issue. No church, no university, no situation should cloud the issue. I hope for revelation to all people, especially those making the laws of the land, to help address the real issue. I could care less where it comes from…it needs to happen to protect our daughters, and our sons, and our society as a whole.
mom3 wrote:Quote:“what does revelation have to do with it? The human beings that lead the university should be able to figure this out with their own brains!”
LH pretty much.
Sheldon –
Quote:As a father of 3 daughter, two of which went to BYU, I expected something more for a University lead by Prophets Seers and Revelators. I expected BYU to be better than all the other universities, as they would have the inspiration to be a leader in women’s rights. Yet in spite the inspired leadership, BYU was worse than most universities, not better! We either have 15 Prophets Seers and Revelators, or we don’t. Show me the money!
I will let our conversation on this stand at your above comment. People have had God in multiple forms all their lives and they still do stupid. I sensed no feelings of compassion for the victims in your initial statement. Perhaps I was wrong.
Mom3, I think we are violent agreement. It is no accident that I picked Sheldon as my avatar. I have many of his good and bad traits. Those traits make me a good engineer, but sometimes a lousy (snarky) communicator.
As the Mom of a daughter, whose college professor took physical advantage of her, I am more than invested in the results of any college effort to protect it’s students. Including Catholic boys repeatedly raped by their coach in the shower. Yes – Sheldon – I get the avatar/moniker. And Sweetie – you pushed the wrong button.
In my heart I knew I probably should never have read this thread at all. I burn every time this topic comes up. No matter which “Lord’s University” is involved. I also treasure this little weird corner of the bloggernacle world. And sometimes I lose it on behalf of people we never see.
I am putting myself on extended hiatus until I can calm down.
My apologies to those who didn’t need to be a part of my response.
Heber wrote:
Quote:It is wrong to think BYU is the true university, and therefore has no problems (so the individuals in these cases must be the problem), and it is a mistake to assume that because things happen at BYU there is no revelation.
I think both sides should take a step away from the extremes. But it behooves the institution with the power and control – multiplied if you’re a women who has never and may never participate in any discussions – to get more real and humble. Take the first step in a convincing, trust-inspiring way. I hope that’s what this is.As someone who has spent the last eight years working in higher education, I simply must say that BYU is NOT worse that other institutions. This change had to happen, but the overall issue I saw the same and worse and many, if not most, other institutions. This is a society-wide problem – a serious, nearly universal problem.
For me the way in which BYU was worse is that we expected so much better. Of all the girls in “The Hunting Ground” documentary (about campus sexual assault country-wide), the one who seemed the most broken and devastated by her experience was the Notre Dame student. Again, high expectations and shattered trust.
This is good news. I’m very pleased with these changes but I’m still not sure I want my daughters attending BYU. (Frankly, with an acceptance rate of 47% and falling, I don’t think I’ll have to worry about it.) My husband is both fully TBM and a BYU alum (I am neither) and I was really surprised to find out that he was in favor of honor code amnesty pretty much from the moment the story broke. So it’s not just people who read the Bloggernacle who were in favor of this change.
Question: does this policy affect all the BYU campuses, or only Provo?
My wife is also TBM and a BYU alum. With a BYU student son and alum daughter this topic came up when it was big news and has come up in the intermittent time as well. I was actually somewhat surprised that my wife is very in favor of the amnesty policy as well. The BYU campuses are independent of each other, Joni. This only applies to Provo. Knowing some kids from our ward who attend/attended Idaho, the honor code is a bit different there and on the more strict side. It is also apparently more strictly enforced from my understanding. What I don’t know is how Idaho’s HCO and Title IX Office interact, which was a core part of the problem at Provo. I don’t know if there is an amnesty clause at Idaho but I doubt it. I’m not exaggerating when I say that the likely response one might get from Idaho is “We don’t have that problem like Provo does” but I’m sure sexual assault does happen there because it happens on every college campus whether they admit it or not. It just happens that BYU and Baylor made the news.
Joni wrote:This is good news. I’m very pleased with these changes but I’m still not sure I want my daughters attending BYU. (Frankly, with an acceptance rate of 47% and falling, I don’t think I’ll have to worry about it.)
My husband is both fully TBM and a BYU alum (I am neither) and I was really surprised to find out that he was in favor of honor code amnesty pretty much from the moment the story broke. So it’s not just people who read the Bloggernacle who were in favor of this change.
Question: does this policy affect all the BYU campuses, or only Provo?
I think I read that the other campuses have said they will adopt also – in fact I want to say that I heard BYU-I had already moved forward on a few items ahead of BYU Provo – that was a shock.Speaking of the honor code, there is an interesting read on this in the trib the other day
History of the BYU Honor codeI thought that article was interesting as well, LH. It seems the honor code started as a tool to deal with cheating. It reached much of its current iteration during the Wilkinson administration. I agree that students should take it back, or perhaps have a bigger role. However, that could be a dinosaur in the garden as well – my son sits on his ward council and he says there are a couple members of the council who frequently “rat out” (his words) members of his ward for minor infractions. To his credit, he said the bishop usually does not respond and he’s not aware anyone has been disciplined in any way for these reports. Still, it should be kept in mind that some of the most TBM people on the planet are students at BYU, and it wouldn’t seem likely they would choose my son to be an honor code committee member because he skips shaving whenever possible and wears a blue shirt to church. The article also pointed out that there was a time when students were encouraged to rat out their friends: Quote:1959 • Wilkinson tells students during a back-to-school address that they have a duty to report their peers’ bad behavior: “In certain strata of our society there has grown up the false code that one ought not to ‘rat’ on friends. … This is the code of the underworld. It is the code of those who engage in prostitution, other forms of moral debauchery and crime of all description.”
I liked the comment from Oaks included in the article, although no major changes to the code itself were implemented under his administration:
Quote:New BYU President Dallin Oaks tells students this fall [1971], “I am conscious that you cannot make a great university by lowering hemlines and shaving chins. I have no desire to make the razor and the tape measure symbols of my administration.”
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