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[img]https://i.imgur.com/QlQDBLH.png [/img] Some of the more recent Dolores Umbridgesque crackdowns on protests at BYU are being challenged.
Dolores Umbridge (Harry Potter) educational decree #68:
Quote:All Student Organizations, Societies, Teams, Groups, and Clubs are henceforth disbanded. An Organization, Society, Team, Group, or Club is hereby defined as a regular meeting of
three or more studentsapproval of the High InquisitorSelections from BYU demonstration policy (real life):
Quote:Demonstration means an event that occurs on University Property that is not sponsored by the university in which
two or more peopleSo they went with an even stricter two person limit compared with Dolores Umbridge’s three person limit. You know you’re doing something right when you make Dolores Umbridge look lenient.
Quote:Demonstrations that do not have an
approved ApplicationYes, there’s a difference between a group and a demonstration, but to trot out a different Star Wars quote, “The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.”
Last night’s protest:
[img]https://i.imgur.com/NcNh1fZ.png [/img] https://www.sltrib.com/news/2022/03/19/lgbtq-allies-light-byus-y/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.sltrib.com/news/2022/03/19/lgbtq-allies-light-byus-y/ BYU requiring temple recommend for new hires:
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/ecclesiastical-leader-questions-new-ces-hires ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/ecclesiastical-leader-questions-new-ces-hires https://www.deseret.com/faith/2022/1/27/22901919/byu-other-latter-day-saint-schools-will-require-temple-recommends-for-new-hires ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.deseret.com/faith/2022/1/27/22901919/byu-other-latter-day-saint-schools-will-require-temple-recommends-for-new-hires I had a couple thoughts on the “incident.” First it does not appear the Deseret News covered the lighting of the Y at all. No surprise, really, as that might give some more “negative” publicity to the university/church and “positive” publicity to a cause they (DN, the church or the university) don’t support. Second and somewhat related, while it does appear BYU police were present and aware, no one was arrested or fined (at least not yet) but “protesters” were apparently complicit when asked to leave. Regarding the temple recommend for BYU employees I think it’s the church’s and BYU’s way of weeding out folks like us. Unfortunately I think BYU needs people like us – even as evidenced by members here that are BYU students. From my own kids who went there I know there are people questioners can trust but it’s likely that’s coming to an end. In retrospect, Holland’s talk was probably a precursor to this new requirement (noting there was a time not all that long ago when BYU hired non-member professors).
Not long ago, I read a fascinating article about some history of private schools. The article was essentially looking at the whole issue from a supply/demand – free market lens. It made the case that during forced integration private schools flourished because many were not integrated and gave parents a non-integrated choice.
Times have changed and not being integrated is not the selling point that it once was. Now many private schools would like to promote their diversity. We are now entering a strange time where large portions of the population are rejecting the ideas of diversity as “woke.” Private schools can be caught in the middle between those that seek out diversity and those that would reject such labels/wording. This means that there can be a marketplace opening for a private school that differentiates itself by going against the grain.
The church has a university system. Whereas the private schools talked about in the article are primarily motivated by profit and market share, the church university system is less motivated by such concerns.
However, I do see similarities in that the church university system is likewise torn between those that want the BYU’s to be something similar to an extension of Sunday school and those that want them to be more like traditional universities with heavy allowance for and even encouragement of dissenting voices.
I feel that the church’s goals are aligned with those that want a more Sunday school university and they are adjusting their policies accordingly.
DarkJedi wrote:
Regarding the temple recommend for BYU employees I think it’s the church’s and BYU’s way of weeding out folks like us. Unfortunately I think BYU needs people like us – even as evidenced by members here that are BYU students. From my own kids who went there I know there are people questioners can trust but it’s likely that’s coming to an end. In retrospect, Holland’s talk was probably a precursor to this new requirement (noting there was a time not all that long ago when BYU hired non-member professors).
I feel like this may be the end of an era for BYU. It had become a very well-respected university that attracted many talented students. But I think the church overestimates the appeal of a forced-orthodoxy version of BYU, and I wouldn’t be surprised if more of the best and brightest LDS students decide to go elsewhere in the coming years.
There is a huge gap in what students want vs what the general authorities think they should want.
Many, if not most, students at BYU are there because it’s a quality education at an affordable price, not because they want to go to EFY for four years.
Very few students react well to messages like Elder Holland’s, and those that do are the kind of people nobody likes. Most students I knew at BYU were quite supportive of their LGBT peers, even if their support was expressed in hushed conversations after class instead of public protests. No one cares if their chemistry professor has a temple recommend. And there is a general sense of oppression felt from the Honor Code Office.
The cultural shift that is so feared by the leaders of the church has already happened. Enforcing orthodoxy at BYU isn’t going to change that. But it will drive away many talented would-be students and faculty, and BYU’s status as a quality educational institution will suffer as a result.
Arrakeen wrote:
The cultural shift that is so feared by the leaders of the church has already happened.
When I try to think of possible motives for any change two come immediately to mind.
1) Shielding rising generations from the cultural shift. But as you say, it’s already happened.
2) This could also be driven by fear of losing religious freedoms. Leaders could see requiring a temple recommend as an end run around imagined future civil rights laws. They wouldn’t be denying employment over gay marriage or someone’s position on gay marriage, they would be denying employment over lack of a temple recommend. Never mind that the only reason someone might not have a temple recommend is because of their position on gay marriage.
Back in 2015 Christofferson intimated that support for gay marriage wasn’t grounds to lose a temple recommend. I say intimated because I don’t remember there being a direct statement.
https://www.sltrib.com/news/mormon/2015/03/03/balancing-lgbt-religious-rights-wont-be-easy-mormon-leaders-concede/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.sltrib.com/news/mormon/2015/03/03/balancing-lgbt-religious-rights-wont-be-easy-mormon-leaders-concede/
Quote:What about Mormons who support same-sex marriage privately among family and friends or publicly by posting entries on Facebook, marching in pride parades or belonging to gay-friendly organizations such as Affirmation or Mormons Building Bridges? Can they do so without the threat of losing their church membership or temple privileges?
“We have individual members in the church with a variety of different opinions, beliefs and positions on these issues and other issues,” Christofferson said. ” … In our view, it doesn’t really become a problem unless someone is out attacking the church and its leaders — if that’s a deliberate and persistent effort and trying to get others to follow them, trying to draw others away, trying to pull people, if you will, out of the church or away from its teachings and doctrines.”
The qualifiers are very subjective and I’m sure there are many out there that would take a statement of unapologetic support for gay marriage as an attempt to pull others away from church teachings. Besides, the questions listed in the newsroom article went well beyond what is asked in a TR interview.
It’s a shame that the church has made procreative relationships the definition of celestial existence. It’s also a shame how churches in general appear to be wired to use their religious freedom to discriminate and circumvent laws rather than use their religious freedom to find ways to bless people’s lives.
What happened at BYU during the Viet Nam War? I wasn’t in the church yet. I was going to college at the time.
It seemed like every college & university had demonstrations & protests.
Many professors participated.
Did the church try to control them too?
Arrakeen wrote:
I feel like this may be the end of an era for BYU. It had become a very well-respected university that attracted many talented students. But I think the church overestimates the appeal of a forced-orthodoxy version of BYU, and I wouldn’t be surprised if more of the best and brightest LDS students decide to go elsewhere in the coming years.I agree, and I think BYU is a respected institution in part because they did hire highly qualified scholars (even non-members at one point). Now it seems they’re more focused on church loyalty/dogma than academic qualifications. You get to be a top university by hiring top people. It appears that with these guidelines academic qualifications don’t matter as much as church qualifications, thus a poorly qualified applicant could get the job over a very highly qualified applicant just because they hold (or don’t hold) a temple recommend. I won’t name names but there are religious universities that are laughing stocks among other “tier one” universities (or have lost their tier 1 esteem altogether).
Quote:Many, if not most, students at BYU are there because it’s a quality education at an affordable price, not because they want to go to EFY for four years.
This was definitely a consideration for my own children. I live in the northeast where state colleges are known to be on the more pricey side. Tuition at BYU is actually a little less than state schools in my state, and BYU is a nationally known university. We (and the children that went there) chose BYU for those reasons, not because of the honor code. (My wife’s view on this is a bit different as a BYU alum she did push for the kids to choose BYU.)
Roy wrote:
I feel that the church’s goals are aligned with those that want a more Sunday school university and they are adjusting their policies accordingly.
The following Quote from a recent talk given by Elder Holland to BYU is a great example of the sort of voices that the church leadership might identify with most closely.Quote:Then, imagine the pain that comes with a memo like this one I recently received. These are just a half-dozen lines from a two-page document:
“You should know,” the writer says, “that some people in the extended community are feeling abandoned and betrayed by BYU. It seems that some professors (at least the vocal ones in the media) are supporting ideas that many of us feel are contradictory to gospel principles, making it appear to be about like any other university our sons and daughters could have attended. Several parents have said they no longer want to send their children here or donate to the school.
“Please don’t think I’m opposed to people thinking differently about policies and ideas,” the writer continues. “I’m not. But I would hope that BYU professors would be bridging those gaps between faith and intellect and would be sending out students that are ready to do the same in loving, intelligent and articulate ways. Yet, I fear that some faculty are not supportive of the Church’s doctrines and policies and choose to criticize them publicly. There are consequences to this. After having served a full-time mission and marrying her husband in the temple, a friend of mine recently left the church. In her graduation statement on a social media post, she credited [such and such a BYU program and its faculty] with the radicalizing of her attitudes and the destruction of her faith.”[6]
Fortunately, we don’t get many of those letters, but this one isn’t unique. Several of my colleagues get the same kind, with most of them ultimately being forwarded to poor President Worthen. Now, most of what happens on this campus is wonderful. That is why I began as I did, with my own undying love of this place. But every so often we need a reminder of the challenge we constantly face here.
Minyan Man wrote:
What happened at BYU during the Viet Nam War?I wasn’t in the church yet. I was going to college at the time.
It seemed like every college & university had demonstrations & protests.
Many professors participated.
Did the church try to control them too?
I understand that the church was very much against the hippy movement and that is the beginning of the no facial hair rule still practiced to this day. I also seem to remember that most of the LDS BYU population had some sort of deferment on being drafted because of missions and/or school.
Quote:Then, imagine the pain that comes with a memo like this one I recently received. These are just a half-dozen lines from a two-page document:
“You should know,” the writer says, “that some people in the extended community
are feeling abandoned and betrayed by BYU. It seems that some professors (at least the vocal ones in the media) are supporting ideas that many of us feel are contradictory to gospel principles, making it appear to be about like any other university our sons and daughters could have attended. Several parents have said they no longer want to send their children here or donate to the school. I think the bolded portions also apply to LGBT students who feel betrayed by BYU, people who feel the oppressive policies are contrary to gospel principles of love and compassion, and parents who don’t want to send their children to a place becoming known for bigotry.
Quote:
“Please don’t think I’m opposed to people thinking differently about policies and ideas,” the writer continues. “I’m not. But I would hope that BYU professors would be bridging those gaps between faith and intellect and would be sending out students that are ready to do the same in loving, intelligent and articulate ways. Yet, I fear that some faculty are not supportive of the Church’s doctrines and policies and choose to criticize them publicly. There are consequences to this.After having served a full-time mission and marrying her husband in the temple, a friend of mine recently left the church. In her graduation statement on a social media post, she credited [such and such a BYU program and its faculty] with the radicalizing of her attitudes and the destruction of her faith.”[6]
First, for a church that believes so much in agency it seems strange to blame some faculty member for a person leaving the church, especially when we are also quick to blame the individuals who leave for their personal lack of faith.And for every person who leaves the church because of a faculty member criticizing church policies, there is likely another who leaves because of a faculty member
supportingchurch policies. Supporting unpopular church policies can damage someone’s faith just as much as criticizing them. Interesting quotes from the Marriott Alumni Magazine (BYU Business School): Quote:“We’ve seen companies change the schools they’re recruiting at,” she says, skipping BYU in favor of, say, a historically Black college, or halving their BYU-grad hires in an effort to meet their diversity goals.
If the business landscape values diversity and what BYU produces is homogenization, then there are consequences for that.
Quote:The RFBF [Religious Freedom and Business Foundation] fellows spoke to BYU Marriott Students about how companies and institutions value diversity, unity, and belonging. Brian Grim, president of RFBF, hopes more business leaders will include religion in their definitions of diversity and belonging.
“Not enough people understand the big changes happening in corporate America, where religion is now part of diversity,” says Grim. “Many companies have a growing movement of allowing employees to bring their whole souls to work, not just their whole selves.” The mission of RFBF is to help both employers and employees understand how to be comfortable and effective with incorporating religious diversity in the workplace.”
I admit that this portion struck me funny because of the baggage that I have come to associate with “Religious Freedom” being coded language for the freedom to discriminate against others based upon religious beliefs. I surely would not want that in my workplace. However, if I am being charitable and equating “religious freedom” with the ability to wear a religious head covering at work or something of that nature then I see no problem with it.
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