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Heber – Best response to Nibbler yet. My poor face hurts so bad. The doctor warned about chewing hard food, hot beverages, and shower water. He forgot to mention laughter. Thank you both gentlemen.
LookingHard wrote:
He may have issues, but he does have a wife!
I didn’t propose like that. They had those chicken feet dealies on my mission. Never. That is all.
DW reminded me that I “proposed next to a cesspool” but I had to do something to make me look better. It’s all about relativism.
nibbler wrote:
DW reminded me that I “proposed next to a cesspool” but I had to do something to make me look better. It’s all about relativism.
Would you rather have me ….oooorrrrrrrrr…. this cesspool??? Best false dichotomy ever!
nibbler wrote:
There’s the cafeteria Mormon (CM) where you don’t live up to every expectation simply because there aren’t enough hours in the day or because people aren’t perfect. This CMfeels bad about their shortcomingsand vows to do better in the future but juggling life priorities and imperfections will always make them a CM. DW is this sort of CM. She feels that I justify my imperfections rather than repent of them. I, on the other hand, feel that constantly berating myself for not being Christ like is not the way I want to live.
Roy wrote:
nibbler wrote:
DW reminded me that I “proposed next to a cesspool” but I had to do something to make me look better. It’s all about relativism.
Would you rather have me ….oooorrrrrrrrr…. this cesspool??? Best false dichotomy ever!
That sounds more like a threat than a proposal! But I guess with me only having 2 eyes, I can’t see things the same way that nibbler does.LookingHard wrote:
I guess with me only having 2 eyes, I can’t see things the same way that nibbler does.
😆 😆 Cmon, LH…open your third eye! You can do it!
LookingHard wrote:
We all are different. I do many of the things that SD says no to.I have not done a HT visit in a few quarters. I have 2 middle to late aged sisters that I HT and they keep me plenty busy helping around their homes. Just this weekend I went to both to help with some home repairs and lighting a hot water tank. I count 100% HT every month.
I have a question — at what point are you simply saving them money because they can afford to pay someone to do that if they wanted to?
At what point is service simply free labor because the recipient can afford to pay someone to do it for them?
SilentDawning wrote:
At what point is service simply free labor because the recipient can afford to pay someone to do it for them?
I believe that for most of us receiving service is a gesture of fellowship. I personally do not need HT visits but I appreciated having someone to help me set up the trampoline every spring or move the full size freezer that somebody gave me. I could hire someone or ask friends from outside the church but frankly I see this as part of the benefits of church participation.
If service were reserved only for the truly poor then receiving service would be somewhat embarrassing (at least for me).
SilentDawning wrote:
LookingHard wrote:
We all are different. I do many of the things that SD says no to.I have not done a HT visit in a few quarters. I have 2 middle to late aged sisters that I HT and they keep me plenty busy helping around their homes. Just this weekend I went to both to help with some home repairs and lighting a hot water tank. I count 100% HT every month.
I have a question — at what point are you simply saving them money because they can afford to pay someone to do that if they wanted to?
At what point is service simply free labor because the recipient can afford to pay someone to do it for them?
It is a good question. In both of the cases I mentioned, I encourage it and actually enjoy it. In fact I am most frustrated when I have to tell them, “I can’t do that” or “it is too risky for me to do that”.But let’s talk about the time we showed up to someone needing to move out of a rented trailer and we show up and they don’t even have ANY boxes and I can’t say, “charity never faileth ” cause it did for me in that situation. I felt taken advantage of – kind of like when I am asked for the 3rd time in a year to clean the church.
I mostly see giving service as part of the commandment to love one another. That’s not why I do it, though. I do it because I’m a nice person. There are times when I won’t do service because it just doesn’t fit my schedule or would take away from time with my family which I see as more important. (note: sometimes we have given service as a family, but there’s a subtle difference and it again it has more to do with attitude). On some occasions I just don’t do it because I don’t want to. And I have also been in situations similar to what LH mentioned – show up to move someone and the boxes are still empty. But there’s also a selfish side to service – it makes me feel good that I have helped a fellow being with something they truly needed help with. FWIW, I don’t see cleaning the church as service. Perhaps I could change my attitude but I don’t see that happening in the near future because I dislike “every member a janitor” a great deal. My ward is somewhat small and my family “gets the opportunity” about 6-7 times a year. I don’t usually “do my part” and interestingly my more orthodox wife doesn’t either although she is more likely to do it and does it more often than I do.
SilentDawning wrote:
I have a question — at what point are you simply saving them money because they can afford to pay someone to do that if they wanted to?At what point is service simply free labor because the recipient can afford to pay someone to do it for them?
I think of the earlier saints that played a more hands on role in building temples and even more recently when members played a larger role in the construction of their meeting houses. Contrast that to the present where temples and meeting houses appear with little member involvement. Sure, the buildings still come from the members via tithing but the connection isn’t as strong. A dollar paid in tithing doesn’t feel like a dollar that made my local meetinghouse possible, there are too many layers of abstraction between the donation and the construction.
Is a part of it the connections that sacrifices create? Is it related to that thing where a teenager will take better care of something that they bought vs. something that their parents bought for them?
If we’re talking the church paying for janitors vs. asking members to sacrifice more of their time: the cynic in me would say that the sacrifices we see in church are a reflection of the top-down hierarchy of the church. Members sacrifice a lot, and their sacrifice makes the church special to them. What does the church sacrifice for the average member? What does the church do to make the members special to her? When I say church I don’t mean the Q15. They sacrifice their
livesfor the church. My point falls flat if the church is defined as a cold organization or some mental construct that consumes people’s sacrifices… so I don’t have much of a point. This is off topic but I wonder what the “church” could give back to place the “church” on more equal footing with the level of commitment that her members show. The top brass bringing back the janitors? A paid local clergy? Increasing the ward budgets by an order of magnitude? Wealth hoarding for a future rainy day doesn’t seem to be benefiting anyone. Of course I don’t know whether that’s the case, all I can do is speculate.
When I was about 10 I helped put the final touches on a local stake center. Now all I did was handle the tubes of liquid nails for all the men that were doing the real work, but I helped. And I do admit that I think about it every time I go to that building – about once every other year or so. I have cleaned my current brand new chapel about 5 times and it does not bond me to the building.
Quote:
This is off topic but I wonder what the “church” could give back to place the “church” on more equal footing with the level of commitment that her members show. The top brass bringing back the janitors? A paid local clergy? Increasing the ward budgets by an order of magnitude? Wealth hoarding for a future rainy day doesn’t seem to be benefiting anyone. Of course I don’t know whether that’s the case, all I can do is speculate.
The church isn’t about equal footing — as it says in King Benj Discourse — we are always indebted to God so nothing we do can put us on an equal footing. As the church is an extension of God, it has no accountability or obligation to equalize the effort.
The problem with this line of thinking is that it evaporates as soon as you view the church like any other temporal organization. And the fact that the church behaves like any other temporal organization doesn’t seem to make it any easier either.
nibbler wrote:
This is off topic but I wonder what the “church” could give back to place the “church” on more equal footing with the level of commitment that her members show. The top brass bringing back the janitors? A paid local clergy? Increasing the ward budgets by an order of magnitude? Wealth hoarding for a future rainy day doesn’t seem to be benefiting anyone. Of course I don’t know whether that’s the case, all I can do is speculate.
I am trying hard to stay balanced and remember the good that the church does to benefit the members. The Pathways continuing education program is really good. The Perpetual Education Fund is a blessing to those that receive it. As much as I have issues with the way the cub scout program is administered, it is provided at no charge (even though there is a direct cost to the church). I believe the addiction recovery program is there to serve a need.
Unfortunately, programs in the church can be a double edged sword. In some ways the “church” is the membership. Add a program to benefit the members and the members must be burdened with running said program.
SilentDawning wrote:
I have a question — at what point are you simply saving them money because they can afford to pay someone to do that if they wanted to?At what point is service simply free labor because the recipient can afford to pay someone to do it for them?
This is a major issue in western society. I gave up volunteering for a certain charity because it felt like a business. And interns get used for all kinds of unpaid labor or even sex! The arts are really bad for this.
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