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Wow. I just reread your post about your experience today, and I clearly missed some of the awful stuff the first time I read it. I certainly didn’t mean to make light of your very unpleasant experience. I’m not sure if this has been quoted here before, but Elder Holland’s words (from a PBS interview) seem applicable:
Quote:.. If someone can find something in the Book of Mormon, anything that they love or respond to or find dear, I applaud that and say more power to you. That’s what I find, too. And that should not in any way discount somebody’s liking a passage here or a passage there or the whole idea of the book, but not agreeing to its origin, its divinity. …
I think you’d be as aware as I am that that we have many people who are members of the church who do not have some burning conviction as to its origins, who have some other feeling about it that is not as committed to foundational statements and the premises of Mormonism. But we’re not going to invite somebody out of the church over that any more than we would anything else about degrees of belief or steps of hope or steps of conviction. … We would say: “This is the way I see it, and this is the faith I have; this is the foundation on which I’m going forward. If I can help you work toward that I’d be glad to, but I don’t love you less; I don’t distance you more; I don’t say you’re unacceptable to me as a person or even as a Latter-day Saint if you can’t make that step or move to the beat of that drum.” … We really don’t want to sound smug. We don’t want to seem uncompromising and insensitive.
It seems to me the same principle would apply to how we look at Jonah, Noah, Job, and others. Some people really need to lighten up.
I think your experience shows just how strong the culture can be in certain wards and stakes — to the point of blindness by some. I ran into this in a Canada ward I used to belong to. Any time you stood up in front of a body of priesthood, there were former and current stake presidency members who would call you out in the middle of the meeting about something you said. Highly rude and the sort of behavior I see in my university students when they lack maturity. It sounds like whenever you “push” on something that goes against the grain of the culture, they are now pushing back with an equal force. In times like this, I stop pushing entirely until their forces subside.
cwald wrote:…He bore his testimony that the Jonah and Noah stories were historical, factual and literal events, that Jonah did in fact get swallowed by a whale, and that Noah fit every animal on the ark and only 8 people were left on the planet…
😯 . . . .
:wtf: . . . . . . . . .:think: …:crazy: . . . . .🙄 ….Oh boy….
So sorry cwald.
canadiangirl wrote:Here’s a tough question. Do you think you can stay TBM and think metaphorically about the scriptures? Or is metaphorical thinking a stage 5 development?
I’m going to use one of our favorite StayLDS terms on this one: I’d say it’s a “sliding scale.” I think faithful/literals can and do also see metaphorical lessons in the middle of literal interpretations. Some more than others, some on more topics than others. Most of the time we just need to be careful about how we reveal our metaphorical appreciation – because obviously there are some members that will not share our affinity for the metaphor.
Tangent thought — I think a stage 3 or 4 view of stage 5 “metaphorical faith” cannot fully appreciate the depth of the stage 5 belief. Like many things in life I get the feeling it needs to be experienced to be fully understood. FWIW.
I also sat through a sunday school lesson where someone suggested that Jonah may not have actually been swallowed by a large fish and the response was strong that “God created a fish for Jonah.” The point was that nothing in nature is known to have the ability to swallow a man whole. I just thought it was cool that someone would mention the natural obstacles to the story.
doug, that is a great quote. cwald, I would print that quote and take it to your Branch President – saying (as meekly, softly and calmly as possible) something like:
Quote:I want to believe and accept these type of statements from apostles – and those like Elder Wirthlin’s in the talk I was teaching. I really want to believe he was talking about me and others like me – who are different in some way but really want to stay. I need you to support me when I hear statements like the Stake President’s saying there might not be room for me in the Church just because I don’t think the case of Noah and Jonah and some other things have been translated correctly as literal events. I accept them as symbolic stories that can have great meaning for many people; I just don’t believe they literally happened.
I’m not asking you to fight the Stake President publicly or anything like that. I’m just asking you to accept what the apostles have said and support me in my efforts to stay LDS. I need to ask you a very direct question, and I don’t mean to be confrontational in any way. I just need to know.
The question is:
Do you agree with Elder Wirthlin and Elder Holland?
I am so sorry to hear how it went, cwald. I don’t have any advice for you that would differ from anything else that has been said, but I wanted you to know that I felt for you and the situation. I appreciate the empathy. I don’t know what I will do.
Tom Haws wrote:canadiangirl wrote:There is room for us. There must be.
There is room for us. In all candor, there may not be temple recommends, callings, or (in the extreme case) membership records for us. But there is room. “It’s my church too, and I’m here to stay for now.”
I really like this – I think it is simply honest, and I hope you are right.
Cwald, My heart goes out to you.
I am trying very hard to keep my personal beliefs out of the conversation. Perhaps I would have said something about how belief in the literalness of the Jonah and Noah stories shouldn’t be a litmus test for church membership. I know it sounds alot like being a Mormon politician, “I can neither confirm nor deny my views on this subject,” but for me, I choose to remain in the shadows.
I am in no way suggesting that you should have done this, I am just reminding myself to remain ambigious about my convictions for my own reasons.
Good luck!
Roy wrote:Cwald,
Perhaps I would have said something about how belief in the literalness of the Jonah and Noah stories shouldn’t be a litmus test for church membership.
Yes, I agree with you, this is what I meant when I said that I was “stupid.”
Doug – I took no offense. I enjoyed the humor.
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