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hi CandleLight, wow ! that’s all i can say as I’ve read the posts in this thread from you and others here. your story reminds me of that church video “The Book of Mormon: How Rare a Possession” where an italian man tells his life story relating to when he first found the book of mormon in a garbage can with no cover and how it changed his life. his story included being excommunicated from his christian denomination for adhering to The Book of Mormon as the word of God and not denouncing it. in spite of his excommunication he felt great peace for standing up for the book with no name. maybe you have seen the movie, maybe you haven’t.
I admire Brian’s comment about making a place for our gay brothers and sisters in church – no matter what the doctrinal problems it might involve. I feel that way too. I am reminded, too, of a comment made by Marie Osmond when asked how she felt about her lesbian daughter in spite of the church’s stance on homosexuality and she said “How can you not love your child ?” This conversation between her and the reporter has been uploaded to youtube.com and I think it’s fabulous that she said it.
Candlelight, my heart goes out to you. I have been and will be praying for you, as I know so many others here are too. I am praying specifically that you will be able to be calm and see the biggest picture, so that you may sidestep feelings of anger, especially as you head into your disciplinary council. People can and will say stupid things to you. Don’t let those situations distract you from your relationship with Heavenly Father and the Savior. Keep praying! Your prayers will be heard. You are loved! Keep focusing there. You are important to your Heavenly Parents. You will NOT be abandoned by those who matter. When I have gone through hard situations and there have been a few, I like to repeat to myself, “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.” Quote:wow ! that’s all i can say as I’ve read the posts in this thread from you and others here. your story reminds me of that church video “The Book of Mormon: How Rare a Possession” where an italian man tells his life story relating to when he first found the book of mormon in a garbage can with no cover and how it changed his life. his story included being excommunicated from his christian denomination for adhering to The Book of Mormon as the word of God and not denouncing it. in spite of his excommunication he felt great peace for standing up for the book with no name. maybe you have seen the movie, maybe you haven’t.
Yes, saw that video many years ago.
Correction to my last post. You will NOT be abandoned by those who matter. A major difference. Thanks for all of the reassurance and support. I am pretty nervous about the upcoming DC… before I ever got home, I actually thought about running away from the whole process by leaving home to stay with some friends in the city. I quickly decided that wasn’t an option, and know that I need to face this head on. Come what may. I have no idea what to actually expect, so if anyone here could shed some light on that I would greatly appreciate it. All I know is that there will be 12 Men from the High Council present… and at least a handful of them know me and my family fairly well. Past leaders of mine, fathers to close friends, friends of my parents… etc. I’m dreading having to retell my story again to these people. It’s very personal and makes me very uncomfortable, partly because I’m not an Orthodox Mormon like the rest of them, and have a very different perspective of the whole situation. I’m usually more of a passive person who’s slow to anger, but I’m not so sure what will happen here. Also, I’m not really sure which way I’ll go after it’s all said and done. There’s a good chance that the verdict will be Excommunication… and obviously I’ve never dealt with that before. I could see myself easily losing any desire to maintain ties with the LDS faith (the only exception being my family). I believe in so many things the Church stands for, and love the sense of spirituality and closeness to God it provides me, but at what point does it stop being worth the price?
Tomorrow at Church will be my first public appearance in the community since being home. I’m really dreading it.
All I know is that it’s going to be one hell of a day. Tomorrow night I will return and report.
I will be thinking about you while we attend our sacrament meeting. I’ll say a prayer for you & your family.
Others have done it for me in the past.
I always feel good knowing that someone offers to do that for me.
You’re not alone.
Keep up posted of your progress.
Mike from Milton.
Having sat in on the process, if it were me, I would walk away from a disciplinary council. Obviously you can’t be made to participate. On the other hand, I know there are stories about people who have found healing from being a part of that. Search your heart. If you think it would provide closure for you or for someone else important to you, by all means go ahead with it. It will be tough, but you can handle it. Otherwise, tell them thanks, but no thanks. Thank you Mark. It really does mean a lot knowing that there are people out there praying for me right now. I appreciate it more than I can express. doug wrote:Having sat in on the process, if it were me, I would walk away from a disciplinary council. Obviously you can’t be made to participate. On the other hand, I know there are stories about people who have found healing from being a part of that. Search your heart. If you think it would provide closure for you or for someone else important to you, by all means go ahead with it. It will be tough, but you can handle it. Otherwise, tell them thanks, but no thanks.
Thanks for the insight Doug. My Stake President assures me that they can be a very “spiritual” meeting, but I’m not so sure about that. I feel like it will be very intimidating for me, and also very difficult to honestly speak the feelings and beliefs I have. I can easily see them twisting my arm and putting me into a position where I will feel pressured into saying things I don’t really support. Sort of just saying what they want to hear from me, and undermining my own beliefs. That’s not something I want. I don’t feel guilty for who I am, and actually feel a lot better about myself than I have in a long time. I think it throws people for a loop when they see me smiling or in a good mood considering my circumstances. It’s really awkward for them and they don’t know how to approach me. Oh well.
In a DC the decision usually comes down to whether the person wants to change/repent in which case it’s disfellowshipment and if not and they feel they have to protect the good name of the church, excommunication. Most people that are exommunicated have cut themselves off already so it’s not this big surprise. As a general rule missionaries that commit moral/sexual sins aren’t exommunicated anymore as the church realized very few ever are rebaptized. So it’s likely that what happens will be up to you. Keep us posted; our thoughts are with you through your difficult time. No matter the outcome, you will be in a better place for being honest. Quote:All I know is that there will be 12 Men from the High Council present… and at least a handful of them know me and my family fairly well. Past leaders of mine, fathers to close friends, friends of my parents… etc. I’m dreading having to retell my story again to these people. It’s very personal and makes me very uncomfortable, partly because I’m not an Orthodox Mormon like the rest of them, and have a very different perspective of the whole situation. I’m usually more of a passive person who’s slow to anger, but I’m not so sure what will happen here.
I would advise you to speak slowly. Allow yourself to pause to collect your thoughts. And if you tell them how you are feeling, not just the facts, it will give them more reason to listen well and allow you to be accurate in describing your situation. I think it is helpful to actually tell them, “I feel uncomfortable talking about this, knowing that it will change how you see me,” or “I want to be accurate, so let me gather my thoughts.” I too know of people who found the DC process to be very healing, not that it always is the case, but it can be. It sounds like the people in the room already love you and know you, even if they don’t know your personal story and views. They will probably be inclined to be empathetic, though.
Quote:Also, I’m not really sure which way I’ll go after it’s all said and done. There’s a good chance that the verdict will be Excommunication… and obviously I’ve never dealt with that before. I could see myself easily losing any desire to maintain ties with the LDS faith (the only exception being my family). I believe in so many things the Church stands for, and love the sense of spirituality and closeness to God it provides me, but at what point does it stop being worth the price?
I too feel you should be positive in this setting about the things that you love within the church, but you also have to accurately portray your self, your feelings, and your intentions. Would you like to stay active in the church? Would you accept celibacy as the condition? Would you participate, even if you were not in full fellowship? These are the kinds of things you should consider before you go in the room. You have to be who you are, ultimately, and letting them know who you really are is only going to help achieve the best outcome. That is my opinion anyway. Best of luck to you!
candlelight, if you decide to go through with attending the disciplinary council take it as an opportunity to attempt to make a change to the culture of the church.
why is it that a heterosexual man in the church can live with his girlfriend and not get excommunicated ? hasn’t it been church culture lately (decided upon by the first presidency and the twelve) not to excommunicate heterosexual couples who are living together out of wedlock ?
instead of feeling like a victim candlelight, take the circumstance to stand up for gay people in the church everywhere and say your piece. you didn’t decide to be gay – that you just are and that you want to remain a member in spite of your orientation.
in my humble opinion you shouldn’t have to go through this church disciplinary council but the church, by nature of it’s social and cultural norms hasn’t progressed far enough to be open-minded about the factual issues of homosexuality.
stand up, Candlelight, and be heard. in my humble opinion you shouldn’t be excommunicated, and if, at the very least, you should just be denied a temple recommend – end of story.
Tried to make the quote function work but couldn’t. Sorry. Regarding your earlier comments, if you do decide leaving the church is best for you, that certainly doesn’t mean you have to leave any of its teachings you find true and beneficial. Also regarding your arm twisting statement , while that should never happen it certainly could. I’ve never had a disciplinary council against me but I’ve been threatened with more than my share. Many times when my arm was being twisted, after several volleys of me answering honestly and them still twisting to get what they want to hear, I’ve finally said something like, “I’ve given you the honest answer several times and I feel like you are more interested in what you want to hear than in my honest answer, so if that’s what you are looking for here is what I think you want to hear but realize its not an honest answer and not how I feel.” Then I proceeded to give them what I thought they wanted to hear. It can come across as condescending but has worked for me. Stopped the arm twisting every time. Add me to the list of those thinking about and praying for you.
BeLikeChrist wrote:why is it that a heterosexual man in the church can live with his girlfriend and not get excommunicated ? hasn’t it been church culture lately (decided upon by the first presidency and the twelve) not to excommunicate heterosexual couples who are living together out of wedlock ?
I actually hadn’t heard about this until now. Could you provide some sources for me?
BeLikeChrist wrote:…instead of feeling like a victim candlelight, take the circumstance to stand up for gay people in the church everywhere and say your piece. you didn’t decide to be gay – that you just are and that you want to remain a member in spite of your orientation.
Thank you for the suggestion here.I hadn’t thought about what an opportunity this could be for me to stand up for others struggling with the same things.
I would like to keep my membership, but I don’t know if that will be the end result of all of this. They will want me to admit that I am wrong and to accept that what I have done was a sin, and I don’t know if I can do that. I will go as far as to say that I can see the dangers of being sexually active outside the bounds of marriage and the physical and emotional benefits of practicing abstinence. However, I cannot accept that dating, kissing, holding hand etc. is any more a sin than it would be with a female. I’ve dated girls before, and very much wanted to pursue them… the only issue is that the desire/spark goes out very quickly and then all I want to do is get away from them. Things work differently for me the other direction. I find myself in a difficult situation because I don’t want to go through this life single and alone. I’m just not wired that way. Like most other humans, I want meaningful companionship. If I were ever to genuinely feel that way with a girl, and could honestly follow through with marriage, then I would. But one of my biggest fears is that one day I’ll wake up lost in a loveless marriage complete with dependent children. I don’t want that to ever be the case, and never want to cause that sort of damage. I’m trying to take all the precautions I can now to be sure such a thing never happens.
Don’t be argumentative or combative. A disciplinary council is not the place for that. I can guarantee that will not turn out well.I’m going to be direct and open with my advice, having been involved with multiple councils in my callings, so please accept it simply as the input of someone who doesn’t know you personally or any of the details of your situation other than what you’ve shared here:
1) I have no idea exactly what you did prior to your mission that would contribute to the decision of the disciplinary council. You had a relationship of some sort, but you didn’t share the details – and I don’t want you to do so here.
Let me repeat that: I don’t want you to share the details here.Please, do NOT share the details here. However, I do want to make sure you know that, because I lack the details, I can’t tell you what I think I would do or say if I was on the council. 2) You mentioned hugging, holding hands, kissing, etc. in your last comment. I have written on my own blog about that exact thing – the double standard that exists currently in the Church regarding those sorts of activities that I don’t feel are “sexual” in nature and, thus, shouldn’t be seen as “sin” in any way regardless of sexual orientation. (The link, if you’re interested, is:
http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2011/11/homosexuality-and-most-basic-double.html 3) You didn’t share any of this with the people who interviewed you when you were being called as a missionary. That probably will (and should) be “held against you” to some degree.
4) You appear not to have “fought” the Church in any way on your mission; rather, you simply couldn’t teach the Law of Chastity as you perceived it with regard to homosexual members. Those are two different things, and I would mention that directly – that you have no desire to fight the Church or argue publicly – that you just couldn’t serve as a missionary in good conscience.
5) You haven’t told us of any actions on your mission or since that would constitute “breaking the Law of Chastity”. If that is the case, I would mention that directly – that you have obeyed the Law of Chastity fully since the beginning of your mission.
6) In summary, I would be penitent AND direct in saying you are sorry for the pain and embarrassment your decision to leave on a mission caused and that you are trying to do the right thing and not “live a lie” anymore. Tell them, if you really feel this way, that you will accept whatever decision they make and do your best to remain active in and involved with the Church.
Good luck today with the DC. I’m not sure what to tell you other than be true to yourself. Unfortunately, they will want to see that you have a broken heart and a contrite spirit – by their definition. And, it will probably require you to tell them what they want to hear in order in order to minimize the actions they take against you. True honesty really isn’t the goal here on their end. Time now for a rant…
I have had the displeasure of sitting in on a few DC on the ward level as a clerk. Honestly, I’d rather stick needles in my eye. They always say these are councils of love or some other form of bullsh*t. I’m not buying it. Yes, the people screwed up. Yes, by church standards it was very serious. Two of the cases were involving sexual relations (fornication, not adultry – they do make a distinction here.)
I must say though, kudos for the Bishop not kicking it up another notch to the SP and the HC. That would’ve been completely pointless. What I’ve seen is that what went on was absolutely pointless. The very act of voluntarily coming in and voluntarily confessing was hard enough, especially right before your scheduled temple marriage that you have now changed to a civil ceremony. Let’s just drag the pain out another six months to a year. Read your scriptures, regularly attend sacrament and your other meetings, come in every so often, no partaking of the sacrament, public talks or prayers. Why can’t they just be honest and say… we’re just going to publicly humiliate your for the time being because we want you to really understand how serious this was so you don’t repeat it (and so we can put the fear into the rest of the congregation to keep them in line.) But hey, because we love you, you can still pay your tithing during that time. It’s all good, right?! Thanks for being the whipping boy.
Yeah right. It’s a little more about control and money.
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