Can I complain about garments?

[Anonymous]

Ann beat me to it.

NightSG, would you mind clarifying what you mean?

I think NOBODY here thinks that women who wear garments can’t feel or be “sexy” (or appealing or beautiful or feminine or self-confident or anything else) or that all women who wear the garment are un-sexy or unappealing or ugly or masculine or anything else – and nobody has said or implied that, as far as I know. However, there are lots of women who flat-out don’t feel sexy (or appealing or beautiful or feminine or self-confident or anything else) when they are wearing the garment – and some of them have body perception issues (caused to varying degrees by social expectations inside and outside the Church) that are exacerbated seriously by wearing the garment.

Pardon the pun, but this is not a one-size-fits-all issue – and dismissing or diminishing real pain is not somewhere we want to go here.

Again, would you mind clarifying?

[Anonymous]

The issue of whether or not a woman is ‘sexy’ in garments misses the point entirely. Because then it becomes all about the Male Gaze and how a woman’s underwear choices affect the men around her. Even the problem of intimacy – and it is a problem – is secondary, at least in my mind, to the real problem. The real problem is that LDS women have so many aspects of their spiritual, personal, and sexual lives controlled by a group of elderly men they’ve never met. Being able to wear underwear that you like and you chose is a very intimate, very empowering experience for many women. And I am denied that choice by virtue of being, apparently, one of God’s chosen.

[Anonymous]

Ann wrote:

It seems that garment discussions often veer off pretty quickly into sex and intimacy within marriage territory. The focus is on how women can feel “sexy” wearing something so very sexless, when and how to justify not wearing it, etc. But how I feel about garments really has nothing to do with my husband and our sex life. Women should be able to feel feminine single or married, at 21, 91, and every age between.

The operative word is “should”. There are myriad things today besides garments that affect women’s self and body image and ability to feel feminine i.e. advertising, media, “friends”, Cosmo and Self, the Ensign, etc.. When how to overcome those is figured out, it needs to be added to the Young Women in Excellence program.

[Anonymous]

Absolutely, Joni.

This is a much broader issue than we generally make it, like Ann also said.

[Anonymous]

I also get frustrated how the question of women and garments eventual turns to how men still find women in garments “sexy”, “attractive” and “desirable” so women really dont have to be concerned about garments. Women’s issues with garments are not about MEN as surprising as that may seem. Women tell men the many other issues women have with garments but the only thing most men “get” is that garments can make it difficult for women to feel attractive/intimate therefore that may lead to a decrease in sex for men hence this is the only issue that really matters to men. Men are not concerned or even aware of the many other issues garments can cause women. Men can not relate to the multiple yeast infections, mastitis, rashes, hot flashes, soooo many extra layers of clothing, the swamp that ensues, being pregnant and the complete impracticality of trying to nurse while wearing garments. Men do not experience these daily occurrences and therefor dismiss the validity of these “women garment issues” as being exaggerated or negligible at best. The potential physical problems of garment wearing do not even touch on the psychological issue that occur for many women. Eating disorder triggers, depression, sensory sensitivity/overload, self loathing, change in views of personal autonomy and personal choice. These are in my opinion a much greater and detrimental issue to the well being of women that most women let alone men have a hard time admitting to even themselves.

The only comparison I could think to describe to men how foreign and frustrating garments can be for women would be to ask the men to imagine that the church was run by 80 year old women (yes I know lost half of you right there) but try to think how you would feel if women suddenly were in charge and issued a “spiritual command” that all men of the church would now be required to wear ladies lingerie/underwear after having gone through the temple. I’m talking full on lacy bra and panties at ALL times even in the men’s locker room, on sports teams, while in the military, while running marathons,under business suits. Yes women can remove garments for physical activities I know but for some reason nursing, pregnancy and chronic yeast infections are not excuses for removing them so for this exercise to make the frustration more equal men are not suppose to remove them except for showering and sex.

So the guys go from being in boxers/briefs and tshirts their ENTIRE lives, which is the societal norm and healthy for males physically, to suddenly having to wear a bra and panties. Men would argue that these garments are made for women, that you don’t need the extra layer of a bra or that the underwear does’t support you in the ways a man needs to be physically sound. That the extra heat could cause a decrease in sperm count for some men and infections. That you feel less like a man when you are asked to wear what essentially boils down to underwear made and designed for women. That it is hard for you to feel masculine and like your true self when you put on them on. That they affect how you view yourself as a man.

Then the women of the church would simply say that your concerns are exaggerated and invalid because we women don’t have any problems wearing garments so why would you men?

That you men are actually just caving to societal pressures of what society thinks a man should wear to be attractive to WOMEN and since we women of the church still find you attractive what is the problem? Then we women leaders along with other men who have no issues with the garments tell you guys that you need to pray and ask for a testimony of the spiritual beauty of garments. Not to worry about your physical discomfort,that you will get used to it when you accept these women’s underwear, I mean garments as God’s will for you. That you simply need more faith.

[Anonymous]

Dax and Joni – I’m wondering what you think about this: I used to focus a lot on the fact that it was men making these decisions for me, but that’s not even it any more. They could pull back the curtain to reveal (you know they’ve got to be there) the cadre of females who design, consult, etc., in the garment-making process. They could have them speak in General Conference. They could be from every walk of life, every age, every body type, and even include my identical twin. But they’re not me. I need to be given the latitude to decide when to wear garments. Period. And if they do that, I think a lot more women like mom3’s daughter and others will approach the temple more happily and introspectively.

[Anonymous]

GBSmith wrote:

Ann wrote:

It seems that garment discussions often veer off pretty quickly into sex and intimacy within marriage territory. The focus is on how women can feel “sexy” wearing something so very sexless, when and how to justify not wearing it, etc. But how I feel about garments really has nothing to do with my husband and our sex life. Women should be able to feel feminine single or married, at 21, 91, and every age between.

The operative word is “should”. There are myriad things today besides garments that affect women’s self and body image and ability to feel feminine i.e. advertising, media, “friends”, Cosmo and Self, the Ensign, etc.. When how to overcome those is figured out, it needs to be added to the Young Women in Excellence program.

I agree completely. And it all ends up coming back around to what to let into your life, who to listen to, who to emulate – and over and over again it will be pointed out that the girls make choices. But then with garments – no choice?

I can not buy that style issue of People, but the church wants me to have no choice but navel-to-knee underclothing that leaves me feeling as feminine as a tree stump. I don’t hate garments. I see value in them; I like that hard-to-explain camaraderie with my brothers and sisters. I just need more breathing room than the church gives us.

[Anonymous]

I’m really appreciating the insights provided by you all. It’s very nice to hear a woman’s perspective.

Dax, I agree that for the most part garments follow the more contemporary undergarments for men. Maybe there wasn’t such a pronounced divide between garments and regular women’s underwear back when garments were first designed. The world of fashion changed considerably over the last few centuries whereas the garment changed very little by comparison.

Not to detract from what was said but men find garments uncomfortable as well. Maybe it’s more of a universal thing, around here most people know that once they get their garments they are signing up for being uncomfortable at timess. Summers here are brutal, you’d be hard pressed to find someone that wants to opt into wearing an extra shirt during the summer. Couple that with having to cover something that comes down to your knee. Sauna time. Again, that’s more universal. Sounds like women get to deal with all that and then some.

[Anonymous]

Ann……Yes the best possible outcome would be for the church to allow for the individual to determine for themselves how and when garments are worn regardless of who is in authority. The issues is that even on this site with very sympathetic and enlightened men,garment discussions tend to end up being about how the men still find us garment wearing women attractive and that garments are uncomfortable for men as well at times. Nothing against the guys but they do not have the same physical issues as women and can not understand how garments affect women mentally. Truly unless the men are suddenly asked to wear women’s lingerie at all times I do not think they can comprehend the physical and psychological heart ache having to wear men’s underwear causes women.

In truth the other issue I see is that the church will never allow the individual ie women to be able to determine when and how to wear garments because the modern day church uses garments as the best possible way to enforce and police women’s modesty. The garment has become a threat of loss temple recommends, loss of the highest degree of glory and eternal family and the single greatest outward sign of female righteousness as policed and enforced by both men and other women. I have no voice in my own personal needs when it comes to this matter. I

Also it has been said that men and women use to wear similar underwear in the past. That is correct, but at that time women were only allowed to wear dresses so at least some airflow was reaching women in a way that modern day pant attire does not allow.

Again, yes garments are uncomfortable for men at times but they are not completely unhygienic, yeast infection inducing, breast mastitis causing, pregnancy and breast feeding nightmares along with depression and body issue triggering messes that they can be for many women. That is what can happen when women are asked to wear men’s underwear.

I am very happy for women who love garments and find comfort and spirituality in wearing them. I would ask that if you are one of those women, or are married to or your mother is happy with current garments can you please stop telling women with issues to simply have more faith and pray more to gain a testimony the wonderfulness of garments. Sorry but I have yet togain a testimony of unnecessary yeast infections.

[Anonymous]

I was a bit dismayed when I went through the exhibit at Westminster Abbey of Queen Elizabeth’s clothing (the one who ruled when Shakespeare was in his heyday). They look a lot like garments minus the cap sleeves. Let me repeat that. MINUS the cap sleeves. These are undergarments from 1600.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Let me repeat that. MINUS the cap sleeves. These are undergarments from 1600.

My daughter is a historical reenactor. Last week they put on a fashion show of ladies wear covering the time of the Titanic through Roaring Twenties. As part of the fashion show, undergarments were modeled. And low and behold – no capped sleeves, even on the modest Titanic Era Women.

I swear if we cut the cap sleeves, it would help a lot. Make it a camisole. Seriously.

[Anonymous]

I know all of the pressures and statements and societal conformity issues involved in this issue, but, in this particular case, it is ironic that those who choose how they wear the garment are the ones who are acting in line with the official statement in the Church Handbook of Instructions – while it those, at all levels, who insist on one true way are the ones who are ignoring the counsel of the top leadership.

Sometimes, irony is diabetic rich, as one of my sons likes to say.

[Anonymous]

Dax wrote:

Nothing against the guys but they do not have the same physical issues as women and can not understand how garments affect women mentally.

Agree. I read right here in this thread that men haven’t really had or taken the opportunity to see this from a woman’s perspective, so hooray for the internet. I’ve wanted to ask my husband if he would be as compliant in his garment-wearing if there were tiny little white-on-white leaves and flowers woven into garment fabric. “It’s still white. What’s the problem? Garments can’t make you feel anything. It’s your choice how you feel.” Etc., etc.

Quote:

I am very happy for women who love garments and find comfort and spirituality in wearing them.

I’d like there to be more categories than two – women who love them and women who hate them. I want the church to allow that there could be a spectrum.

Quote:

I would ask that if you are one of those women, or are married to or your mother is happy with current garments can you please stop telling women with issues to simply have more faith and pray more to gain a testimony the wonderfulness of garments.

And I ask that they please stop insinuating that a person is a spiritual lightweight if he/she doesn’t want to wear garments all the time. Or that she’s morally broken, deficient or immature. Which, by the way, is NOT what I am hearing from men in this thread.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

…those who choose how they wear the garment are the ones who are acting in line with the official statement in the Church Handbook of Instructions…

That’s my story and I’m sticking with it.

[Anonymous]

mom3 wrote:

Quote:

Let me repeat that. MINUS the cap sleeves. These are undergarments from 1600.

My daughter is a historical reenactor. Last week they put on a fashion show of ladies wear covering the time of the Titanic through Roaring Twenties. As part of the fashion show, undergarments were modeled. And low and behold – no capped sleeves, even on the modest Titanic Era Women.

I swear if we cut the cap sleeves, it would help a lot. Make it a camisole. Seriously.

Think of all the time freed up across the Mormon globe. Instead of spending ridiculous amounts of time and effort shopping: 1)Go to store, 2)Find dress or blouse you like, 3)Buy in your size, 4)Done.

[Author]

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