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Joni wrote:
This is a tendency in the Mormon Church… we assume that if we are doing something a certain way, it’s because that is the exact way God wants it done.
I have found this. It follows that if God is in charge of the church then He approves (at least tacitly) of everything the church does. God knows everything and if there was anything that He wanted changed He could direct the changes at the appropriate level of the hierarchy. Of course there is the matter of free agency and not being in tune with the spirit of God – but if we assume that the prophet is the most “in tune” person on the planet then this becomes a non-issue.
My uncle had an intereting take on this. He posits that changes that the church makes take it incrimentally closer to the ideal and intent of God. The thinking goes that we as an organization are imperfect but that slowly over time and multiple generations the spirit of God is able to gently influence many of the changes that He would like to see. This is similar to something Ray had said about the “restoration” continuing in our day. This allows for mistakes of huge proportions but with the assumption that we are better today than we were yesterday but not as good as we (or our children) will be tomorrow.
Quote:This is similar to something Ray had said about the “restoration” continuing in our day.
I have said and do say that, but it probably is better to reference Pres. Uchtdorf than me if you are talking with another member about it, since he said the same thing fairly recently.
Uchtdorf wrote:Sometimes we think of the Restoration of the gospel as something that is complete, already behind us—Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon, he received priesthood keys, the Church was organized. In reality, the Restoration is an ongoing process; we are living in it right now. It includes “all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal,” and the “many great and important things” that “He will yet reveal.” Brethren, the exciting developments of today are part of that long-foretold period of preparation that will culminate in the glorious Second Coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ.
From the talk ” Are You Sleeping through the Restoration?” April 2014 GC.
I agree with what you all are saying, but then what’s a person to do with this: (because it’s true….) Joni wrote:And, as I think I’ve mentioned before, there is no way to express the least bit of dissatisfaction with ill-fitting, uncomfortable, unattractive underwear
without having your personal worthiness questioned, at the very least. As this thread went on I went out of curiosity to another site I never visit, just to see if garment questions were being asked. They were. There were several women there expressing how difficult it was to wear them, and they were being told in so many words, Tough luck. Put them on, keep them on. You made a commitment.
I felt sorry for
allof them. Ann wrote:I agree with what you all are saying, but then what’s a person to do with this: (because it’s true….)
Joni wrote:And, as I think I’ve mentioned before, there is no way to express the least bit of dissatisfaction with ill-fitting, uncomfortable, unattractive underwear
without having your personal worthiness questioned, at the very least. My solution would be to develop a thick skin about what other people think and do your own thing. Make adjustments and modifications as necessary and learn to be cool with that.
As for the church, I do not believe I have the power to change the church. I will stick around as a member and help balance out the piccolos – but changing the church is not a hill I plan to die on.
My wife – who is a black and white thinker and orthodox member – recently bought some new garmets. She took them home and tried them on immediately with some of her dresses and shirts. The garment sleeves are longer and the part under the armpit went up higher so when she lifts her arms you can see the garments. Her response to me was – does the church expect us to go out and buy a new wardrobe now? It was a telling comment from a staunch supporter. I think younger members will be more likely to just skip the garments, but my wife will wear her old garments with the clothes that the new garments don’t work with.
Roadrunner, I’ve heard that from other women too, and it’s why I’ve put off replacing my nasty gray G’s. And it’s so incredibly infantilizing of LDS women that we have to be “tricked” into dressing modestly. Gotta keep those armpits covered, ladies! The sight of a sweaty, stubbly pit might just cause a man to have impure thoughts! Seriously, can you imagine if a secular underwear did things like arbitrarily changing their sizing without warning? Or refuse to listen to their customers? They’d go out of business. Then again, Beehive Clothing doesn’t have any competition, so it doesn’t matter how they treat their customers. They’re even worse than a monopoly – we have to buy their unattractive, ill-fitting underwear not only because they’re the only game in town, but because God apparently won’t love us if we don’t.
Joni, to be fair, the changes were made in an attempt to respond to complaints they heard. That has happened multiple times in our history, and it is why we now have two piece, short sleeve options with varying neck and material options (and modern sizing) instead of what used to be available. Yes, there still are multiple, serious issues with the garment and how we collectively view and use it, but uncaring, arbitrary and totally unresponsive isn’t an accurate description of our history and the people who make the decisions. It’s a real conundrum: How much of our history can we jettison while still maintaining a link to our past and not losing things that are unique to us and carry deep meaning for so many people?
I think we can change things still, but I can’t vilify those who are trying to make changes without losing what is sacred to them.
Ray I have to disagree. The changes they are making, increasing the length of the sleeves, legs and height of the neck and arm pit openings are not in response to trying to make helpfull fitting changes. The increase of fabric is about keeping more of women’s bodies covered at all times period. Yes that is my opinion but there is no reason my garment top sleeves are now longer than a normal modest tshirt unless it is to force me to wear a larger size shirt or start to wear long sleeves more often. These changes are about control or we would have sleeveless tops that would help with a large portion of the sizing problems and need for women to wear multiple layers at all times. Garments are becoming about female modesty control cloaked in the untouchable doctrine of covenant keeping. I recently hung out with a friend that is a TBM and still wears her garments. As she bent over to pick something up, you could see both the top and bottom portion of the g’s. At that moment I was so grateful I had decided to stop wearing mine, because they were so uncomfortable. I just wear regular undies now and I’m so comfortable in my body. When I wore g’s I was constantly pulling them down (both bottom and top). They’re ridiculous. I’m not saying there aren’t multiple issues going on with the garment. What I’m saying is that the people making the decisions aren’t “uncaring, arbitrary and totally unresponsive”. I don’t think most of them are any one of those three things, with unresponsive (rather than totally unresponsive) probably being the most accurate of the three when it comes to many of the concerns. Quote:Old-Timer wrote: What I’m saying is that the people making the decisions aren’t “uncaring, arbitrary and totally unresponsive”.
The church has spent a lot of time and effort trying to get fit and sizing done properly for garments. Some of the people in involved are commercially successful within the clothing industry. But what a task … Globally different body types. Aiming for a universal fit — something that will fit a 4’9″ Indonesian lady as well as a 5’11” Dane — just by going up in size.
The new sizing is very different. The new fit is very different. For some women, it isn’t an improvement. Beehive clothing does have a custom line. You can send in your measurements and have garments made especially for you. Fair warning .. My friend who tried that service didn’t have great success the first time.
I recently purchased some garments via mail. I got an email survey link afterwards asking questions about fit and comfort. I will say that I did have some “negative” responses to the questions. I have not changed size since my last purchase and I ordered the same size and fabric – but I find the new sets to be much “tighter” and generally less comfortable than the previous versions. The survey did have a place at the end to offer suggestions for improvement. What’s the return policy on garments? amateurparent wrote:The church has spent a lot of time and effort trying to get fit and sizing done properly for garments. Some of the people in involved are commercially successful within the clothing industry. But what a task … Globally different body types. Aiming for a universal fit — something that will fit a 4’9″ Indonesian lady as well as a 5’11” Dane — just by going up in size.
There’s a fitting (pun) metaphor in there someplace.
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