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Carburettor wrote:
I’m still waiting for someone to bring out the figurative pitchforks. That’s what I’m used to. You’re all being far too nice.
Thanks for the compliment:)
1. Pulling out Figurative Pitchforks is a lot of work that we don’t want to do:)
2. Most individuals who end up here in general (especially if they actually write stuff out here) have been on the business end of the pitchforks in one way or another. We know a bit about those pains.
Carburettor wrote:
I agree with pretty much everything that has been said, except the level of discomfort associated with identity misalignment. Being left-handed in a right-handed culture is a trial to endure (passing the sacrament, sustaining, etc.) as is, say, losing a leg, or having a debilitating or terminal disease. Such challenges, however, may be less likely to trigger a core disconnect or dissonance, other than experiencing feelings of “why me?” Confusion in respect of gender and identity, on the other hand, puts gospel-loving individuals at odds with God if we believe what our priesthood leaders tell us. The difference in one’s emotional fracturing is orders of magnitude larger. In my opinion, there is no comparison.
While I agree “there is no comparison”, I am also well-aware that levels of discomfort vary. A person may be able to develop ways to cope with living a life without a leg that are less uncomfortable then a person who goes into emotional shock over being ambushed by their lefthandedness actually being a shameful thing.
One of the unpleasant truths that I have learned to think about is “it’s all about a person’s gifts/skills/weaknesses/perspective that indicate their ability to be resilient”. Like I am a grown woman, so I “should” be expected to handle going to the movies just fine. But because of who I am, the sound is too loud and the screen overwhelming. I wound up going to the movies in the winter to see a popular movie – and even though I walked out for a part of it and wore ear muffs to cancel out some of the sound, I still regret going. My skillset in this instance has nothing to do with my age (except that I am old enough to be smart enough to wear ear muffs and hold my ground non-verbally if anyone “judges me” for wearing ridiculous reindeer ear muffs while in the theater:)
Carburettor wrote:
I feel a measure of peace only when I am contributing to self harm by pretending I am someone else. I believe this is unjust, so I cannot accept that God is the author of it.
It’s tough sorting out the balance between “being yourself” and “being a selfless human who follows the norms”. Learning which thoughts “are self-harm” vs which thoughts are “useful” is a good thing. There are whole fields of therapy devoted to this process.
NOTE: Checking out “Masking” as a topic that came out of the ASD world. ASD peeps learn to “mask” (or not) to a specific degree as a defense mechanism. Observing when “masking costs you” vs when “masking doesn’t necessarily cost you” is a good thing to know about.
Carburettor wrote:
At the risk of venturing into melodrama, my situation results in occasional waves of morbid thoughts. Thankfully, pondering the enduring impact on my wife and children deters me from taking action. If I were not a member, I’d simply be dealing with the emotional issues I have found to be commonplace among those in LGBTQIA groups (having participated in several secular and faith-based ones). The additional dimension of hellfire and damnation, however, is enough to make a situation unbearable.
Understandably so. Being the jury, judge, and executioner at your own trial is pretty unbearable (which is what I think you are doing to some degree).
I’d recommend reminding yourself that “God is the judge – not me” and then redirecting your thoughts so you don’t rain down hellfire and damnation on yourself for the next period of time. I took a stab at what I think would help – but the exact protocol you need to stop the hellfire and damnation process may have nothing to do with what I said:)
Carburettor wrote:
Perhaps we should review some of the “inspired” statements of senior priesthood leaders from my formative years to evaluate whether I am being overly sensitive. They are found in the public domain and are easily verifiable.
Assuming you are feeling what you feel – would the validation coming from reading those statements actually do anything in real time for you?
When the soul/body reacts “sensitively” to something – it is communication to the outside world/to the conscious that “this is hurtful” and it is a request to stop the pain, to change something. From what you have written, you are trying to figure out who is “right” – “you as a horrible person” or “church leaders who taught truths that hurt you who state they have authority from God to do so”.
– I don’t know if there is a “false binary” going on here.
– I don’t know if both “rightful truths” are wrong.
As much as I wish to, I have decided against quoting from the responses to mine at this hour simply because I need time to process the messages — they are so richly thought-provoking — but it’s past 1.00 AM here. However, I love the impartiality conveyed in your messages; the way you haven’t categorically negated or belittled my evolving world view, but challenge me to consider other aspects.
I certainly hadn’t given any thought to the idea that evolution doesn’t always proceed in virtuous ways, otherwise we would surely have progressed beyond brain disorders by now. Which reminds me that I do very much believe in the causation of nature and nurture combined, and that, in my world view — centred on eternal order and there being a loving God — our nature doesn’t make us one thing or another but rather influences our susceptibility in interpreting societal cues about identity (whether from parents or wider society).
Perhaps I was unclear or muddled on that. I don’t believe parents are directly responsible (or anyone else for that matter) unless deliberate neglect or abuse is involved (which has proven to be a form of causation). Likewise, it seems to me that it can never be proven that people are born into experiencing gender and identity misalignment because, as I mentioned previously, no one can remember being a baby so they cannot say with any certainty that they have always felt a particular way. It’s impossible. I became aware of feeling things weren’t right by the age of four, but the overlaying of sexuality on identity cannot occur before puberty. Before then, one is only posturing for the sexual hardwiring that accompanies the rise in hormones from the onset of puberty — which, for me, was almost a decade later.
One of my children was speaking in full sentences by the time she was 18 months old (and was still pretty much bald), making her a popular spectacle in supermarkets when other shoppers would marvel at the talking baby. She learnt to process language at a reasonably early age (although she isn’t especially academic), yet her memories date back to no earlier than when she was three. How could she, for example, imagine that she has always felt a certain way when she has no conscious memories of a significant period of her early development when she was already articulate. I just don’t buy it.
My assertion about biology loading the gun is that (1) neurodivergence leads some susceptible individuals to interpret societal imprinting in negative ways, and (2) children whose biology is ambiguous or makes them superficially appear to be ambiguous in terms of the idealised male/female binary are likely to be the subject of identity suspicion (as was the case for me).
Society pulling the trigger is simply about people (even with the best of intentions) telling effeminate-looking Johnny that he mustn’t play with dolls because boys don’t do that. That he shouldn’t put his hands on his hips like that because that’s what sissy boys do. And, in my case, being regularly punched for years by an older brother who delivered his blows while accusing me of being a girl. How was I supposed to identify with masculinity? It was something from which I was excluded. It became the “other,” and puberty then hardwired it as the “sexual other” (except that I resisted it with all my “scrupulosity” and ended up becoming a living contradiction and hating myself).
In my Plan-of-Salvation world view, which is overflowing with agency, children are born unprogrammed (with some, sadly, more susceptible to harmful messaging than others on account of their brain chemistry), and society then positively or negatively models their outcomes. If there is any possible truth there, both society and the Church (as part of a wider faith society) have some serious injustices to answer for someday.
AmyJ, I tried to watch “Stranger than Fiction” on Amazon Prime, but it turns out it is no longer available. However, I watched a handful of trailers on YouTube, and I believe I have already seen it.
Instead, I stumbled upon a new Netflix documentary, “UNKNOWN: Cave of Bones.” What a serendipitous discovery! Non-human primates burying their dead a quarter of a million years ago. My evolutionary senses are tingling. I note there have been criticisms of the findings published online within the past few days, but the documentary evidence is fascinating and somewhat compelling. I am also reminded of the 800,000-year-old Happisburgh footprints of bipedal hominids walking in a group, discovered a few years ago relatively near to where I live.
Goodnight, kind people.
Roy wrote:
I also believe that these bad sentiments towards LGBTQ+ individuals still to this day have a strong footing within the leadership and the membership. I believe that the church could “repent” or turn away from these bad sentiments and work hard to make the LDS church a more welcoming and peaceful place for LGBTQ+ individuals.
Agreed. It has been my sad experience that “bad sentiments” still thrive in parts of secular society and also in the LDS church. Back in 2018, I spent three hours with my stake president, trying to explain the myriad complexities and contradictions that some vulnerable members must face on account of the twisting Church narrative slowly unfolding in respect of gender and identity. To my great dismay, I was able to tease out of him his suspicion that same-sex attraction and paedophilia are connected. I was horrified that he either consciously or subconsciously was tarring me with that brush — and that he, a professional in the field of medicine, should still believe such nonsense. How could he?Well, In 1961, Elder Mark E. Petersen of the Counsel of the Twelve Apostles authored an article called “The Prowler in the Jungle” that was published in the September 20, 1961 edition of Deseret News (
https://newspapers.lib.utah.edu/details?id=25429094 ) in which he stated, “We have come to a time whenthe deviate poses a continuing menace to children on every street in every community. … They are all there, molesters, rapists, killers, homosexuals— even men and women who are ready to serve as instructors in the black arts of degeneracy. They are emotionally sick and disabled creatures. … They are waiting. They are hunting. They are seeking the inexplicable circumstances that will trigger the attack. A word, a glance, a smile, a gesture — something will set it off.” If only that were an isolated statement. There have been many in a similar vein that have framed Church sentiments for decades. In the
Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W Kimball wrote, “Thus it is that through the ages, perhaps as an extension of homosexual practices, men and women have sunk even to seeking sexual satisfactions with animals.” That is the type of slander I have tried to emotionally dodge for decades, trying to find joy and peace by pretending such comments were directed at others. They weren’t. For individuals like me, peace perpetually feels ephemeral.
And regarding the idea of
repentingfor decades of what feels increasingly like poison, let me share something our next prophet, Dallin H Oaks, said in an interview in January 2015 with the Salt Lake Tribune (available here if you have a subscription: https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/03/31/dallin-oaks-says-church https://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=2122123&itype=cmsid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUJns80itNE (and plenty of other places). He said unequivocally that the Church doesn’t “seek apologies … and we don’t give them.” To my ear, that sounds no more Christlike than saying, “the Church doesn’t seek charitable donations, and we don’t give them.”The reason for sharing such comments is to highlight the problematic backstory that has simply been sidestepped or deliberately obfuscated. I have no problem with influential individuals making it known that their views have changed in light of greater understanding. I applaud that. I cannot support hiding information or hoping people will simply forget — because it is embedded within the subconscious of many.
An illustration of deliberately hiding misleading statements rather than addressing and correcting them can be found in the talk “Turning the Hearts” by Elder Hartman Rector Jr. of the Quorum of the Seventy, delivered during the Sunday Afternoon Session of May 1981 General Conference:
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1981/04/turning-the-hearts In recent years, I have deliberately sought out controversial statements simply to gain greater understanding about myself and my faith. It is the unresolved dissonance I increasingly feel that has led me to try (and fail) to bring about wholesome, supportive change (not doctrinal change) in both my local area and my country (as was as internationally through the North Star organisation) and which brings me to this forum.
I need to make my posts shorter.
Roy wrote:
I also believe that it is inferred that success means something about getting married in the temple and going to heaven as an exalted male and female couple. Those are assumptions.
I mean no disrespect when I remind you that I wascommanded by Godin my Patriarchal Blessing to seek out a wife, marry, and have children. I love my wife in the way that I can access such love, but this path has been a form of unwitting conversion therapy that has caused me (and others) significant and continuing harm in the absence of being able to address unmet needs relating to gender and identity. I actually believe that getting married and having children
isthe path to joy as much as taking vitamin supplements can contribute to health — except that my own vitamins have been laced with arsenic. AmyJ wrote:
ASD peeps learn to “mask” (or not) to a specific degree as a defense mechanism. Observing when “masking costs you” vs when “masking doesn’t necessarily cost you” is a good thing to know about.
Yet again, AmyJ, you have offered some fascinating insight. I have just worked my way through much of the following document:https://neurodivergentinsights.com/blog/what-is-masking-in-autism
AmyJ wrote:
– I don’t know if there is a “false binary” going on here.– I don’t know if both “rightful truths” are wrong.
One of my take-aways from another forum (that didn’t want me) is that LDS Church members are experts in black-and-white thinking because it supports binary scenarios in which there is either right or wrong. In reality, there is no such thing, only a scale of relative rightness or wrongness.Black-and-white thinking would have me choose between identifying as heterosexual or one of the many identifiers in the LGBTQIA++ acronym. The truth is far more nuanced. In fact, some of me is heterosexual, some is bisexual, some is gay, some trans, and some queer. In fact, I might even be able to accommodate all those letters in various ways to reflect the gaps I feel in my life. However, that doesn’t help in the search for solutions — and the LDS Church currently shows no appetite for solutions because there will be no shortage of antagonistic people waiting to accuse the Church of illegal conversion therapy. I don’t need conversion; I need to address the unmet needs that have led me to disconnect.
AmyJ wrote:
From what you have written, you are trying to figure out who is “right” – “you as a horrible person” or “church leaders who taught truths that hurt you who state they have authority from God to do so”.
Spot on. I punished myself emotionally for decades because I was naïve enough to give deference to repeatedly pejorative statements. I knew no better. I believed these authorities spoke God’s words — as enduring and damning as their impact has been. Until suddenly there was a change of tack by senior priesthood leaders, which has left me reviewing the wreckage of my life and wondering how to reconcile faith and wrongdoing. You’ve seen the movie, “Sleeping with the Enemy,” right? That’s how I feel. Should I run away?I have come to understand that many vulnerable LDS Church members found themselves in a place of compromise when Ezra Taft Benson took on the mantle of President of the Church (on account of his hardline conservative views). I was oblivious to everything back then. However, in my progressive awakening from 2017 until the current day, the prospect of Dallin H Oaks replacing President Nelson has come home to roost. I am beginning to feel strongly that it will be disingenuous for me to sustain him as the President. I believe he is an amazing, inspirational man with a hateful streak; and that hateful streak is aimed at folks like me.
Dallin Oaks was President of BYU for nine years, and 36 speeches he delivered before and after his term in office remain accessible in the BYU speeches archive (
https://speeches.byu.edu/ ). At least one has been withdrawn. It was titled “The Popular Myth of the Victimless Crime,” shared as part of the Commissioner’s Lecture Series for the Church Educational System in 1974 (https://archive.org/details/Oaks_Criminalize_Homosexuality https://drive.google.com/file/d/1arP9KaGlHS8-GMViNCsx3QA0YW3GGBbX/view?usp=share_link It was Elder Oaks’s 1995 Ensign article, “Same-Gender Attraction” (
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1995/10/same-gender-attraction In my rambling way, I guess I’m trying to express how I increasingly suspect that individuals who identify as LGBTQIA+ are as able to find peace in the LDS church as a black person trying to find peace as a member of the KKK. It
ispossible to fit in and thrive — even long term — by remaining unaware of history and/or by deliberately ignoring its enduring legacy. If those issues come to the fore and demand an explanation, however, no reasonable defence can be offered, so the appetite for tolerating them decreases inexorably towards a vanishing point. I can’t properly express how despondent that makes me feel. If the Church were to undertake an ongoing worldwide open dialogue — with input from all invested parties — into how to help vulnerable individuals reconcile differences between faith and identity in the context of Church principles, practices, and doctrine, there might just be a way to unravel some of the mess. Simply restating the Church’s position ad nauseam — which I now understand to be deeply flawed — serves only to alienate. I cannot find Christ in it.
Carburettor wrote:
Itispossible to fit in and thrive — even long term — by remaining unaware of history and/or by deliberately ignoring its enduring legacy. If those issues come to the fore and demand an explanation, however, no reasonable defense can be offered, so the appetite for tolerating them decreases inexorably towards a vanishing point. I can’t properly express how despondent that makes me feel.
I am glad that we were able to provide food for thought for you over the weekend:)
a. I agree with your premise about “how to fit in”.
b. I have also experienced a degree in “tolerating cognitive dissonance” the way that you have described it. And for me, my participation in the church experience has diminished over time because my circumstances were not modeled/possible in church culture and church leadership – and the way that I “perform gender” (or don’t) didn’t sit well. I am a forecaster, a thinker – and female. I can “mentor” and “teach” anyone – including children AND I am more then my uterus, and I get metaphysical hives being related to cooking/baking. I have the “wrong type of empathy” for a “sister” and “I lead/preside very well (practically in my sleep)” [a cardinal sin for females]. The sensation-focused, feeling world assigned to sisters (in the godly way to “perform gender”) does not fit me very well. It took about 4 years for me to accept this as a way of life (ish – still working on it).
c.
Cognitive Dissonance causes a degree of Despondency. It is a good thing you identify that for yourself as part of your current experience. I found for myself, that it took about a year or so from the onset to “settle down”. It still flashes up – I cycle through some stages of grief (bargaining/anger/denial/etc.) – and it can get better. What helped me was focusing on my core values – what motivated me (in a positive way) to be my best self. For me, it all went back to “Charity” and “Compassion” and “Creating Sacred Holy Ground for All Conversationally”. I don’t know what will drive you forward in a healthy way. Carburettor wrote:
If the Church were to undertake an ongoing worldwide open dialogue — with input from all invested parties — into how to help vulnerable individuals reconcile differences between faith and identity in the context of Church principles, practices, and doctrine, there might just be a way to unravel some of the mess. Simply restating the Church’s position ad nauseam — which I now understand to be deeply flawed — serves only to alienate. I cannot find Christ in it.
It would be nice if the church had worldwide open dialogues with all the groups it marginalizes by accident.
I don’t see it happening because to admit there were differences to reconcile would be tantamount to admitting that “the one true church/organization made gross mistakes – just like all the other churches and organizations out that – and God didn’t care enough to correct the church/organizations”.
The church organization tends to make changes slowly – and there are periods of retraction and focus on re-stating current information as “doctrine” instead of focusing on more innovation. I wouldn’t bet the farm that the church will make the changes that would be helpful to you in real time fast enough (if at all) to be beneficial to you. I would focus on what my Cognitive Dissonance is telling me, and what I need to focus on what is most “valuable” to you. James Fowler’s Stage 4 stuff might be useful to you in this regard.
AmyJ wrote:
I would focus on what my Cognitive Dissonance is telling me, and what I need to focus on what is most “valuable” to you. James Fowler’s Stage 4 stuff might be useful to you in this regard.
Thank you, AmyJ. You’re a gem.Carburettor wrote:
In my rambling way, I guess I’m trying to express how I increasingly suspect that individuals who identify as LGBTQIA+ are as able to find peace in the LDS church as a black person trying to find peace as a member of the KKK.It
ispossible to fit in and thrive — even long term — by remaining unaware of history and/or by deliberately ignoring its enduring legacy. If those issues come to the fore and demand an explanation, however, no reasonable defence can be offered, so the appetite for tolerating them decreases inexorably towards a vanishing point. I can’t properly express how despondent that makes me feel. If the Church were to undertake an ongoing worldwide open dialogue — with input from all invested parties — into how to help vulnerable individuals reconcile differences between faith and identity in the context of Church principles, practices, and doctrine, there might just be a way to unravel some of the mess. Simply restating the Church’s position ad nauseam — which I now understand to be deeply flawed — serves only to alienate. I cannot find Christ in it.
I’ve been busy traveling and with family stuff the past few days, and this thread has been busy! There’s lots to unpack here, but I think this quote really sums it up from my point of view as well. I like the analogy in the first paragraph – it’s very fitting.
I agree that there may be people who “thrive” by remaining unaware, or probably a more correct term would be ignoring. The problem is that it’s very difficult to ignore because some leaders (and local members) can’t seem to not bring it up continually. I don’t think I need to cite names (mostly name). I honestly don’t see how people do it, and I don’t blame anybody for leaving the church because of it.
And I can’t find it in Christ either. A (maybe the) major component of my own faith crisis was church teachings about God (Heavenly Father). My dissonance had to do with what was being talked about almost every Sunday and what I was actually experiencing which were in opposition to each other. It didn’t take long for me to recognize that I didn’t like the Sunday School/F&T meeting God but I took me a long time to recognize that this is not the God I do believe in. In concept it is the same being, but the God I believe in does not act the same way as the Sunday God (and I’m now glad for that). I think the main thing most people suffering through faith crisis have the most difficulty with is reconciling what they have been taught about God (maybe their whole lives) and what they are experiencing with God. Like most others I was of the mindset that if the LDS Sunday God was not God then there must not be a God (similar to the idea that of this church isn’t true then none is). But like others I cam to recognize that this isn’t the case – I don’t have to believe in the Sunday God, and I don’t. My faith is in many ways stronger than before, and letting go of the guilt was a very big part of that.
I hope that someday there can be an open dialogue, but I don’t see that happening today or tomorrow or maybe even in my lifetime.
…Imagine all the people
Livin’ life in peace
You may say I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday you’ll join us
And the world (church) will be as one
Thank you for your comments, DarkJedi. Carburettor wrote:
I certainly hadn’t given any thought to the idea that evolution doesn’t always proceed in virtuous ways, otherwise we would surely have progressed beyond brain disorders by now. Which reminds me that I do very much believe in the causation of nature and nurture combined, and that, in my world view — centred on eternal order and there being a loving God — our nature doesn’t make us one thing or another but rather influences our susceptibility in interpreting societal cues about identity (whether from parents or wider society).
I agree that genetics are not 100% determinative. One quote from the SSA talk by Elder Oaks that stuck out to me said that the genetical twin sibling of a gay man or woman had about a 50% chance of also being gay. However, we cannot assume that the other 50% of siblings in this scenario choose to be gay. I do believe that some individuals are somewhere in the middle of the Kensington scale and are therefore better able to “mask” or “pass” in a heteronormative society. However, our church leaders have certainly gone the distance in following the logical thought that people can just repent and “atonement” themselves out from being gay and in the end this has been quite unsuccessful.I think that a person saying that they were “born that way” is shorthand for saying that their core identity does not match what they are being asked to portray, perform, display, etc. I don’t know how much genetics impacts one’s core identity. However, the point is mostly moot. Once it becomes the core identity (though multiple factors that include nature, nurture, and YES – even past choices) then where do we go from there. How do we make room for them and provide them with an inclusive path forward. How to we respond with compassion and empathy when they tell us that trying to hide their core identity and perform a false identity is killing them inside?
Carburettor wrote:
I subscribed here (and offered a little personal background in the introductions area) to ask this question to all who are willing to delve with me into the messy territory of gender and identity. I have posed the question I spent over fifty years overtly attempting to exemplify in a positive sense without fully realising what I was doing. In the five years since, however, my entire outlook has shifted, and I have resigned myself to remaining in unhappiness and occasional distress for as long as I remain an active, covenant-keeping Church member (which is all I know). I suspect my rationale will surprise you — and it is for this reason that I really, really, really want to talk it through with someone who will listen and respond with kindness. Maybe even show me how to avoid what now feels inevitable.I spent three years interacting with rather a lot of “those” people. Here is a Google map I created between 2018 and 2019 as part of my outreach to a few acquaintances and almost 1,000 members of the North Star organisation, which operates in support of LDS Church teachings in respect of chastity and the Family Proclamation:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=15vNARE93vjcxAKL9UdUeZFtyPu7Xr6A&usp=sharing Zoom in to an area with stars. Right in. A single star represents one or more individuals in the stake named by clicking on it — where red (a whole or partial star) indicates one or more same-sex-attracted men, green represents one or more transgender individuals, yellow represents one or more same-sex-attracted women, blue represents one or more non-binary-gender individuals, and lilac represents one or more asexual individuals. Many members will have changed locations since then, some will have left the Church, and a few may even have killed themselves. The map is simply a snapshot in time of a few individuals whose paths crossed mine. There are hundreds of thousands of others whose paths did not cross mine.
In the course of my interactions with all these members, as well as with LDS Family Services, Church therapists, and Church leaders — from local level to the Office of the First Presidency — my optimism for a future without distress has systematically evaporated.
As stated earlier, I suspect my rationale will surprise you.
Greeting. I cannot speak for anyone but myself and so you will better understand, I will provide a little back story. I am an old and covenant member of the Church. I retired from my consulting business at the beginning of COVID. I am a scientist (math and Physics) and worked in industrial robotics and artificial intelligence. I became a scientist by choice because I am dyslexic and unsuited for much of anything else. I am a member of the Church by logic, reason and choice. I have difficulty with emotions subjective notions and cannot connect anything as real without logic and reason.
As I understand, the great division that caused the war in heaven was singularly because of “Agency” and not over any definition of what is good and evil. I champion the concept of agency. I believe that agency is, in essence, the prime directive G-d intended for mankind (his children). I do not believe that there is any principle more important than the prime directive of agency.
I do not believe that anyone can be happy and have peace with anything that they, themselves, did not understand and deliberately choose. To think or argue otherwise – I believe is futile and the only possible result of opposition to this notion is eventual misery, inability to find or have peace and unhappiness. Others may think that they can have peace and be happy with something they did not choose – I just do not understand such thinking. However, I believe that the greatest good is that you decide for yourself what you will be and will be happy with before you can achieve any notion of peace.
I think you and I agree that you are the piolet to your happiness and your peace. Those that claim they are victims without deliberate choice – I cannot understand how it is possible that they can ever achieve peace or happiness.
It is logical to me that there are 3 degrees of glory resulting from our mortal experience with “good” and evil. My definition of good and evil may be different than most but it is not really perinate to this thread. It is logical to me that only that which is Celestial is sustainable. I do not believe that anything within the LGBTQ+ definition is sustainable. I can explain why but again that is not what I believe is as important as agency.
It is logical to me that whatever degree of glory a person is resurrected for is a glory of their choice and agency. I see no reason to attempt to convince someone that is sure of their own choice – what will give them happiness and peace. I can only state clearly what peace and happiness I seek.
I will support anyone that is clear what their choice in life is. I do believe that the closest they will come to peace and happiness will be in the community of the Saints of G-d. Unfortunately, in this life very few achieve Sainthood – most of us fall short – some of us more than others. Never-the-less, I believe you should choose for yourself and only then will you find peace and happiness.
[MODERATOR NOTE +++ Watcher is more on the traditional LDS viewpoint on this and most other topics than are many of the participants here. The moderators do not want an echo chamber here and do find various viewpoints and dissenting opinions valuable. We do not chase people away for what they believe as long as they don’t dismiss or diminish the viewpoints of others. This topic is of a particularly sensitive nature. I believe that the stated belief that nothing “within the LGBTQ+ definition is sustainable” is more or less an extension of what has been said by DHO and other church leaders. I believe that it is offered with the intent of being helpful.
There is great danger of arguing or becoming divisive here. If it happens the thread will be locked. +++ END MODERATOR NOTE] Carburettor wrote:
To my great dismay, I was able to tease out of him his suspicion that same-sex attraction and paedophilia are connected. I was horrified that he either consciously or subconsciously was tarring me with that brush — and that he, a professional in the field of medicine, should still believe such nonsense. How could he?
Yes, you provide ample evidence for why he could confuse the two. Depending on his age, he could have grown up and heard these things during his formative years and internalized them into his worldview. Once something becomes part of your worldview it is very difficult to remove. An individual will often interpret the facts to support and strengthen their worldview and dismiss or discredit those facts that contradicts said worldview. I believe that your SP is incapable of seeing a different framing. This limits him from being able to “minister” to your particular needs. It also will blind and handicap him from being able to see and make any needed changes that he might have otherwise made for the good of the stake. He might see his inability to consider other viewpoints as a strength because he finds other viewpoints as threatening. I view this as a sad and fearful position that is worthy of pity.Carburettor wrote:
He said unequivocally that the Church doesn’t “seek apologies … and we don’t give them.”
Yes, that sentiment is super lame. I feel this quote is partly build from a desire to defend the church from lawsuits. Apologies mean an admission of guilt and admissions of guilt = $$$$. DHO comes from a law background and I think this perspective dominates his headspace.However, the church removing certain hateful things from the records is not without a silver lining. The current church is more accepting and inclusive than it ever has been in its history. Removing these teachings reduces the chance that they will be taught or that someone will think that they need to defend the indefensible. The church moves at a glacial pace. It doesn’t want to jar or unsettle anyone that internalized the old rhetoric so it quietly removes those parts and then waits for those individuals to die off.
Carburettor wrote:
It is the unresolved dissonance I increasingly feel that has led me to try (and fail) to bring about wholesome, supportive change (not doctrinal change) in both my local area and my country (as was as internationally through the North Star organisation) and which brings me to this forum.
I too have tried to change my local congregation in small ways. I generally advise against this course of action. 1st because the amount of change that the individual can effect is so tiny as to be constantly frustrating. 2nd because we live in a top down hierarchy and people will be especially suspicious of people trying to effect change without authority. I see it as spending my social capital to bang my head against the wall or “kick against the pricks.” My own efforts to StayLDS mean trying to coexist in a sustainable way. Trying to change even something as small as my ward was not sustainable for me.
Carburettor wrote:
Roy wrote:
I also believe that it is inferred that success means something about getting married in the temple and going to heaven as an exalted male and female couple. Those are assumptions.
I mean no disrespect when I remind you that I wascommanded by Godin my Patriarchal Blessing to seek out a wife, marry, and have children. I love my wife in the way that I can access such love, but this path has been a form of unwitting conversion therapy that has caused me (and others) significant and continuing harm in the absence of being able to address unmet needs relating to gender and identity. I actually believe that getting married and having children
isthe path to joy as much as taking vitamin supplements can contribute to health — except that my own vitamins have been laced with arsenic.
I think that you believed that you were commanded by God and you made decisions based on that command. I am sorry for that. The church gave you assurances and promises in the name of God. I generally understand that you gave up more than anyone should have to give up in order to live the “gospel” program and now you are fairly shocked that the church has retreated from those positions and promises.
You mention vitamins. I think a better analogy is corrective lenses (glasses). The church gave you a set of prescription lenses that were not created for you. Other people might testify at how wonderful the glasses are and that they empower them to see the world with clarity. You tried them and it made the world even more muddled and blurry. The glasses even gave you a headache. However, you were convinced that YOU were the problem and that if only you had enough faith that the glasses would work and become a panacea.
You can be happy for and supportive of those that find the lenses to be wonderful and amazing, even while knowing that they are not right and are not helpful for you personally. I think that everyone here at StayLDS is navigating a similar road to this (with the church “glasses” starting to do more harm than good for us as individuals) although not quite to the same extent that you are.
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