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bridget_night wrote:
I listened to Grant Palmer’s podcast on the Laws and it just blew my mind. I keep hearing all these excuses for JS, like ‘all the prophets had weaknesses.” and JS admitted he had flaws. BUT, JS broke 6 of the 10 commandments including adultery and murder. Any of us lay people today would be excommunicated for the stuff he did, but not JS and other early leaders. Instead, teens and single members today, have been raked over the coals for masturbation and having a same sex attraction, or women wanting the Priesthood. I expect a little better from prophets and leaders than lay people in the first place, but at least repentance and consequences not rationalizations.
It is interesting that you would assume that Joseph Smith broke 6 of the 10 commandments including adultery and murder. I realize that his critics have claimed such by cherry picking second and third hand sources out of context from history, but that is to be expected for any true prophet of God. The fact that there is so much controversy about him is just another evidence that he really was a true prophet. But actual historical evidence in context shows he was neither an adulterer or a murderer. I suggest you do some serious and careful research into what the defenders of Joseph Smith have turned up historically before you jump to these extreme conclusions because of what the critics have said.He was or was not an adulterer based entirely on one’s view of his marriages / sealings. Thus, it is pointless to debate that one. There is almost no doubt, if actual statements by some of his wives are accepted, that there was sex involved in some of them (at least consummation sex) – but there is no proof whatsoever that there was sex involved in many of his marriages, particularly with the youngest few and the latest ones. The evidence that there was no sex in those cases is overwhelming. Thus, again, it all depends on how someone views his multiple marriages and sealings.
There is no evidence whatsoever, that I have been able to find, that he murdered anyone.
Well, I highly respect Grant Palmer and believe he does his reasearch. I listened to him here where he talked about JS hiring Porter Rockwell and Jackson to take out Govenor Boggs and the immorality of JS. http://mormonstories.org/grant-palmer-on-sexual-allegations-against-joseph-smith-william-and-jane-law-and-his-resignation/ But, if you have evidences to the contrary or believe Grant Palmer is wrong, I am open to hearing it.
bridget_night wrote:Well, I highly respect Grant Palmer and believe he does his reasearch. I listened to him here where he talked about JS hiring Porter Rockwell and Jackson to take out Govenor Boggs and the immorality of JS.
http://mormonstories.org/grant-palmer-on-sexual-allegations-against-joseph-smith-william-and-jane-law-and-his-resignation/ But, if you have evidences to the contrary or believe Grant Palmer is wrong, I am open to hearing it.
Ooooh, that! That isn’t murder. It is conspiracy to attempt murder.
:crazy: Just trying to lighten the mood.I understand that there is nothing definative linking JS or Porter to the assasination attempt – although the circumstances are somewhat suspicious and the perpetrators where never caught. I know that Missouri authorities of the day wanted to extradite JS to prosecute him for it. I do not know what evidence thay may have had to assume his guilt. Richard Bushman seems to conclude that the church was not involved.
That spiritual wifery guy that got kicked out of the church also made the claim that he performed abortions for the plural wives of JS. Though that claim seems to be just a parting jab on his way out the door. Nobody else has ever made such a claim and given the emphasis that the polygamy docrine places on increase – that would just seem unreasonable.
But I think that Bridget’s major theme is that we expect near perfection from our prophets and are less than forgiving of the general membership. The current leadership seems squeeky clean. If some of these things came out about a current church leader – the leader would be quietly retired at the least or excommunicated at the most. There must be significant pressure to live up to people’s perceptions. Perhaps that is why GA’s are counseled not to keep journals and members are counseled not to ask GA’s about their spiritual experiences. We are pretty extreme in our perfectionism and perhaps nobody gets the brunt of that more than our current church leaders.
We rationalize things that JS did because it better fits into our mental framework of what a prophet is and how a prophet behaves. How we see him says more about us, our expectations, and our needs than it does about him. We talk about JS being imperfect as though he forgot to put the toilet seat down – but it seems that many would not be able to accept JS struggling with/emroiled in major sin.
Thank you Roy….thank is exactly what I am meaning. Would somebody please tell me what Givens is? To come to an anwer whether prohpets make mistakes or not, you first have to know who their judge is and then he or she has to tell you. My current feeling is that some prophets are kind of scoundrels. I am becoming more comfortable with this. That the Lord can work through people with real problems. But if I believe this and still hold the gospel as true – I have a much harder time litening to some (but not all) conference talks. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. But I’m willing to entertain that Paul may have been mistaken.
:angel: I think they should be judged on their words and actions, not on their position. Heber13 wrote:I think they should be judged on their words and actions, not on their position.
That’s an interesting point to ponder, Heber. Are you saying that prophets may get an extra break (more mercy?) because of their position? Or are you saying we should judge them by what they say/do as opposed to who they are? If it’s the former, I don’t think they do – God is no respecter of persons. If it’s the latter, I agree totally – the primary teacher speaking in SM can be just as inspired as the president of the church.
Rsbenson wrote:Would somebody please tell me what Givens is?
Heber answered, but I can expand a bit. They (Terryl and Fiona) wrote The God Who Weeps and Crucible of Doubt (which I just got as a gift) among other things. They speak to those of us who have questions and doubts from a point of view that is validating and not condescending. I don’t agree with every word they say, but I agree with the gist of their messages. They are coming to speak here in a couple months (sponsored by the stake) and I can’t wait!President Uchtdorf has said from the General Conference pulpit that church leaders have made mistakes in the past, and I am 100% certain that he would say the same thing about himself and our current leaders. The recent official statement from the Church about the Priesthood ban also says clearly that former leaders have made mistakes. I support and sustain them as prophets, seers and revelators, but they absolutely do make mistakes. I will trust President Uchtdorf and the current Church leadership on this one. If anyone disagrees with them, feel free to say so.
DaddyB wrote:… The fact that there is so much controversy about him is just another evidence that he really was a true prophet…
Hmmm?
I’m sure Warren Jeffs would agree?
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