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SamBee wrote:
Doing good things won’t necessarily make your life injury free, but doing bad things will often result in injury to you of your own making.While faith is paramount, unless you try to live a good life, it is somewhat valueless.
Good point Sam – neither faith nor works really get us anywhere by themselves.
The whole act of “being redeemed” is steeped in the ideas and language of exchange and transaction. Being ransomed, paying for sins, delivered, literally buying back your freedom from bondage. Reflexzero wrote:
The whole act of “being redeemed” is steeped in the ideas and language of exchange and transaction. Being ransomed, paying for sins, delivered, literally buying back your freedom from bondage.
I hear what you’re saying (and I hear it said often in church), but I disagree with those ideas.
One of my favorite stories related to this topic is that of Job. Not because it shows that horrible things can happen to good people, but because of something Satan says at the beginning: Quote:
9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Here’s how it reads to me:
Quote:
Look, Jehovah, your best buddy Job there only obeys you because you bless him for it. He’s not a good person, he’s yourmercenary. If you curse him instead, I guarantee you he’ll curse you right back.
This gets at the problem I have with the “law irrevocably decreed” and such: if the blessing doesn’t follow as a natural consequence, it encourages being a mercenary instead of being good.
And now for something completely different: I had coffee with a vicar friend this week, who pointed out that the Lord’s Prayer asks for no individual blessings at all.
The Lord’s Prayer isn’t a personal prayer; it is a group prayer. Thus, it doesn’t ask for personal blessings but rather group blessings. IMO, that is a distinction without a difference. Just saying. 
I think humans collectively need to believe we can earn blessings, but many of us also don’t want to believe we deserve blessings based solely on our actions. The end result of such a philosophy is quite nasty pride and condemnation among the privileged.
I like the idea of being blessed, ultimately, based on sincere efforts and following our consciences – founded on an expansive understanding of atonement/grace. It isn’t as easy as either extreme, but it is much more satisfying to me.
Reuben wrote:
And now for something completely different: I had coffee with a vicar friend this week, who pointed out that the Lord’s Prayer asks for no individual blessings at all.
I like that.
dande48 wrote:
Reuben wrote:
And now for something completely different: I had coffee with a vicar friend this week, who pointed out that the Lord’s Prayer asks for no individual blessings at all.
I like that.
Sorry that is completely false doctrine. There are at least three blessings that it requests – daily bread, forgiveness and deliverance from evil.
SamBee wrote:
dande48 wrote:
Reuben wrote:
And now for something completely different: I had coffee with a vicar friend this week, who pointed out that the Lord’s Prayer asks for no individual blessings at all.
I like that.
Sorry that is completely false doctrine. There are at least three blessings that it requests – daily bread, forgiveness and deliverance from evil.
But it is worded in plural, using us. Jesus was apparently offering a group prayer. Individuals could get those things, but that was not the specific request, it seems to have been for all of us collectively. This is as opposed to Jesus saying “Give me my daily bread.”
Us includes I…. As I said, it is a distinction without a difference. The sentiment is nice, but I think it twists the words to express it as a condemnation/criticism of asking for individual blessings in personal prayers – which is how the original statement came across to me.
Our Father which art in heaven, – As opposed to our Earthly father. Directed to God, acknowledging our relationship. Hallowed be thy name. – Praising and respecting God. Obedience #1 – directed to God.
Thy kingdom come, – Multiple interpretations, eschatological & in terms of our actions. Obedience #2
Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. – Do good here on Earth and pray God’s will be followed. Obedience #3
Give us this day our daily bread. – Look after our physical needs. Personal Request #1 – Requested from God
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. – Forgiveness on both sides. Look after our relational needs. Personal Request #2
And lead us not into temptation, – Make life easier! Personal Request #3
but deliver us from evil: – Keep misfortune away from us. Personal Request #4
For thine is the kingdom, – Echoing the beginning. Acknowledgement #1 – Praise
and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. – Doxology & mantra. Acknowledgements 2, 3 &4. Praise
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Esoteric meanings
* God is the father of our souls.
* Man does not live by bread alone.
* Unless we forgive others we cannot be forgiven.
* The kingdom can be that sought within or that we seek to create.
dande48 wrote:
Back to the definition of a blessing, I would place them in four categories.Psychological (I feel good)
- Natural (I am healthy)
- Fortune (My crops have done well)
- Supernatural (Mansion in heaven)
So in some areas, yes, you can “buy” blessings. In other areas, it’s a gamble.
I have though much on this topic. The bible tells us that “Everything good comes from God.” Therefore everything good is a blessing and everyone has them. There are things that I can do to increase some of the good things in my life. The pursuit of good things is valuable and respectable up to a point.
Where I see the dark side of the equation is when individuals become so driven for greater “good things” that they fail to acknowledge, appreciate, and enjoy the good things right before them. This easily applies to the business man surrounded by wealth but always out for more. I believe this also applies to the grandmother with beautiful and numerous posterity that spends her golden years fretting about her grandchildren’s choices keeping them out of the “eternal family”.
There is a saying “The greatest wealth is contentment with little.” Perhaps the greatest blessing is contentment with the blessings you already have.
Perhaps the question I should ask is not if I can “buy” blessings but to what extent I can learn to let that go and live in the now.
Roy wrote:
Perhaps the question I should ask is not if I can “buy” blessings but to what extent I can learn to let that go and live in the now.
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: This is pretty much what I meant when I told my son we can’t buy blessings.
We’re just going to have to agree to disagree, Sam. I think if Jesus really was demonstrating how to pray, as is our theology (or perhaps pseudo-doctrine), he could – and probably should – have very well made the prayer first person singular instead of first person plural. And just to re-emphasize what I have stated earlier, I don’t ask for things in prayer because I don’t believe in that kind of prayer or that prayers are answered in that way (or ever for that matter). Asking for things, even daily bread, is futile IMO. That is my opinion and I don’t expect everyone here to share that opinion.
The real question with the Lord’s prayer as related to the topic, is was this an attempt to “buy” blessings? I don’t think I had prayer in mind specifically when the question came up. I was definitely thinking more along the lines of obedience to x = blessing y. Although nowhere in the Bible are we commanded to pray (one of the first things the BD says, interestingly) I do agree that people (not this particular person) could see prayer as a way of gaining (or buying) blessings and the wording of the Lord’s prayer could play into that way of thinking.
From another point of view, asking (or perhaps begging) for a blessing is different than trying to buy a blessing through obedience or worthiness. That is, I think it may be entirely possible to ask for a blessing (as in asking for forgiveness in prayer) but that is different from buying that blessing. In that case, God could give or not give the blessing as God sees fit, perhaps based on obedience or “worthiness” or perhaps not. We are all beggars after all, and none of us are really worthy of the blessings we receive even if those blessings are only perceived (recognizing that perception is reality).
As a side note, I also find it interesting the sacrament prayers are in third person plural. I often change the wording in my mind to first person singular.
Fwiw, I also don’t see the Lord’s Prayer as an outline of how to pray – or, especially, as a template to be recited. I don’t take the Bible that literally. I am fine, however, with using it to teach a general approach to prayer: sample elements that are fine, so to speak. (like directly addressing the Father, some kind of praise / thanks language, requesting help, asking for unity with God in some way, etc.) I know that comes close to an outline, but I see it more as a springboard. My main concern with how it is used is much like my main concern with continuing as adults to pray like we teach children: making prayer limited and formulaic instead of limitless and expansive. I just don’t think it is valid to use the Lord’s Prayer to criticize the idea of asking for blessings in prayers. I think that approach requires a heaping spoonful of distortion with which I personally am not comfortable.
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