Can’t get over judging people

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

Quote:

most of the responsibility for stopping the abuse falls on the women themselves to say no to anything they aren’t comfortable with

I agree with a lot of the first part of your comment and the last sentence, DA, but I disagree vehemently about the quote above. It’s hard to explain how strongly I disagree with it.

That doesn’t surprise me but it mostly sounds like an emotional reaction and doesn’t really help show me what is wrong with the idea. Unless someone is threatening them or their family with real harm then why can’t they just say no? What will happen if they just avoid the situation or walk away from it? There are former porn stars that left it behind with no apparent negative repercussions whatsoever. I didn’t mean to say that it is completely their own fault that they got involved in this to begin with and I understand that there are probably some extreme hard luck cases where people feel like they don’t have much of a choice especially in third world countries and it’s also not unheard of in the US. But in that case the real question is why don’t they feel like they have a choice and what would it take to make them feel like they don’t need to do this if they don’t want to? My guess is that having a better job, relationships, and/or overall environment would do more to help them avoid this than trying to eliminate the money and pressure from porn producers ever will.

I think any porn producers that intentionally manipulate women into doing things they aren’t comfortable with should definitely stop doing this in an ideal world but I just don’t believe very many of them will stop unless others take away some of the payoffs they are getting out of it and make it more inconvenient for them to get away with this. For example, in a previous thread someone mentioned the idea of creating “responsibly made” porn where everyone involved is treated as well as possible. Maybe if the market was flooded with more benign porn it would help eliminate much of the demand for some of the distasteful and shady black market stuff. Either way, the number of people actually making and starring in porn is so small compared to the number of men viewing it that it seems like a lot more real progress could be made by dealing with the actors and producers directly instead of expecting porn consumers to feel like it is somehow their problem especially when they are mostly just doing something that comes naturally to them rather than some kind of learned idea that can easily be changed permanently.

[Anonymous]

DA, it’s not an emotional reaction; it’s based on extensive research into the global issue. We disagree about it. Fine – but dismissing my viewpoint as “emotional” is a classic way to ignore another opinion. Frankly, I could dismiss your view as ignorant of the overall porn industry, but I won’t do that. I have no idea how much time you have spent studying this issue or how much you are or aren’t an expert on the subject – so I’m not going to be dismissive in the way I view your perspective. I think it’s horribly wrong with regard to the part I quoted, but that’s different than being dismissive of real research and effort to understand a complex issue.

Now, speaking as an admin, let’s drop this. The post isn’t about those aspects of porn. It’s about judging a couple who use porn openly and, apparently, mutually. Let’s stick to that topic and not turn it into just one more thread about porn.

[Anonymous]

Not all boys who see porn do so by choice. My own brothers were introduced to porn by people they knew. They did not seek it themselves. Women are attractive without it, wet dreams happen without it, fantasies happen without it, masturbating happens without it. I remember a professor of mine who ran a preschool telling the class about a kid she had at the school who was simulating sex acts in a very adult fashion so this was way more than regular body exploration. It turns out that the father would watch porn with his son. So that 99% of men view porn and 1% are lying line doesn’t fly with me because I feel that the choice to view it matters very much.

I agree that the porn industry victimizes women who are already easily victimized because of the rape culture in which we live. This makes it even more distasteful to me. I totally get that. (And yes, men are victimized too but we all know that such things happen with women more than men.) That’s why when I know that a friend looks at porn I see them as being ignorant on this subject because if they really got it, if they really understood it, they wouldn’t be consuming commercialized porn. Amateur porn is different, there are people who do such things totally consensually, though there’s still no guarantee that there’s no coercion involved.

I do see sex scenes in regular movies a bit differently. I’m thinking of movies like 300. In general the people who choose to go into roles that have pornographic scenes are not coerced into the role and are thus not victimized. Would you have a problem if they viewed movies like 300 which has an artfully done full on pornographic sex scene between a husband and wife before he leaves for war? I also don’t have a problem with romance novels in that there are no victims, just the writer’s imagination.

Perhaps you can ask why don’t they read romance novels, or better yet, why don’t they take pornographic pictures of each other instead of using commercialized porn? Perhaps they are ignorant of the larger issues of the porn industry. There’s a lot of that ignorance around even among good men and good women, including the men and women who fight for gender equality. There are many issues with porn and even if you take away the evils of the porn industry, the parts about victimizing women (and men), there are STILL issues with it, just like there are STILL issues with alcohol consumption even if alcoholism were eliminated. Getting into those issues is a whole nother thread though. But I find that it very much helps me to see people who view commercialized porn as people acting in ignorance, they don’t know better, they don’t get it, and it’s hard to get people to know better. Just having the knowledge doesn’t automatically make people “get it” and change their behavior. This helps me not judge so harshly and maintain ties and I’d rather not break.

Devil’s Advocate, you’re blaming the victims for being victimized. That’s what’s wrong with your idea there. Thus you are judging them wrongfully. Not cool, and kinda ironic since part of the OP was about judging others.

[Anonymous]

Ruthiechan wrote:

I find that it very much helps me to see people who view commercialized porn as people acting in ignorance, they don’t know better, they don’t get it, and it’s hard to get people to know better. Just having the knowledge doesn’t automatically make people “get it” and change their behavior. This helps me not judge so harshly and maintain ties and I’d rather not break.

I really like this comment Ruthie. I’m sure that I ignorantly hurt others every day (in my words, gestures, neglegence, consumption patterns, membership in organizations with far reaching impacts, etc.). The funny thing is that given the chance to know (really feel) how I have injured others throughout my life – I’m not sure that I would want to fully know. It makes me sad to think about and I can feel my ego either justifying my position or pushing the topic into the background – both of which feel like cop-outs.

[Anonymous]

Ruthiechan wrote:

Not all boys who see porn do so by choice. My own brothers were introduced to porn by people they knew. They did not seek it themselves. Women are attractive without it, wet dreams happen without it, fantasies happen without it, masturbating happens without it. I remember a professor of mine who ran a preschool telling the class about a kid she had at the school who was simulating sex acts in a very adult fashion so this was way more than regular body exploration. It turns out that the father would watch porn with his son. So that 99% of men view porn and 1% are lying line doesn’t fly with me because I feel that the choice to view it matters very much.

I agree that the porn industry victimizes women who are already easily victimized because of the rape culture in which we live. This makes it even more distasteful to me. I totally get that. (And yes, men are victimized too but we all know that such things happen with women more than men.) That’s why when I know that a friend looks at porn I see them as being ignorant on this subject because if they really got it, if they really understood it, they wouldn’t be consuming commercialized porn. Amateur porn is different, there are people who do such things totally consensually, though there’s still no guarantee that there’s no coercion involved.

I do see sex scenes in regular movies a bit differently. I’m thinking of movies like 300. In general the people who choose to go into roles that have pornographic scenes are not coerced into the role and are thus not victimized. Would you have a problem if they viewed movies like 300 which has an artfully done full on pornographic sex scene between a husband and wife before he leaves for war? I also don’t have a problem with romance novels in that there are no victims, just the writer’s imagination.

Perhaps you can ask why don’t they read romance novels, or better yet, why don’t they take pornographic pictures of each other instead of using commercialized porn? Perhaps they are ignorant of the larger issues of the porn industry. There’s a lot of that ignorance around even among good men and good women, including the men and women who fight for gender equality. There are many issues with porn and even if you take away the evils of the porn industry, the parts about victimizing women (and men), there are STILL issues with it, just like there are STILL issues with alcohol consumption even if alcoholism were eliminated. Getting into those issues is a whole nother thread though. But I find that it very much helps me to see people who view commercialized porn as people acting in ignorance, they don’t know better, they don’t get it, and it’s hard to get people to know better. Just having the knowledge doesn’t automatically make people “get it” and change their behavior. This helps me not judge so harshly and maintain ties and I’d rather not break.

Devil’s Advocate, you’re blaming the victims for being victimized. That’s what’s wrong with your idea there. Thus you are judging them wrongfully. Not cool, and kinda ironic since part of the OP was about judging others.

I think this is a dangerous position to take. And perhaps misled about the issue in general. The alcohol statement gives it away. But it doesn’t surprise me, especially coming from a member of the LDS church.

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[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

I think this is a dangerous position to take. And perhaps misled about the issue in general. The alcohol statement gives it away. But it doesn’t surprise me, especially coming from a member of the LDS church.

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I have done a lot of reading about alcohol from scientific sources. You don’t have to be an alcoholic for there to be negative consequences to drinking.

I have done some reading about sexuality as well that indicate that regular consumption of, and/or addictive behaviors regarding, pornography actually makes it harder for men to connect with real women in a sexual way. I do not go to biased religious sources for this sort of information. That’s just asking for trouble. I also don’t appreciate the implied disregard for my words because I’m LDS. I didn’t expect to get that here.

[Anonymous]

Ruthie is correct, cwald. Your last comment was condescending and stereotypical – and, frankly, you quoted way too much to know exactly what it was that concerned you. If you want to critique her comment, that’s fine – but you need to be much more precise and not dismiss with a broad brush.

As to her comment about alcohol, I think anyone will admit that there are issues involved with alcohol consumption beyond alcoholism (which is all Ruthie said) – and Ruthie didn’t condemn all alcohol consumption or those who drink alcohol. I honestly think this is one case where you took something personally and exaggerated what Ruthie actually wrote.

You are good at keeping us in line when we go overboard; this is one case where you need to step back and apply the same standard to your own response.

[Anonymous]

Fine.

There was no basis for that post, other than opinion, that, I guess come from Mormon upbringing.

Outside of religious teachings, please identify the arguements that claim that porn between consenting adults is a bad thing? And the argument that consenting adults watching porn is a bad thing. Please provide the evidence that alcohol consumption in moderation…not alcoholism, is a bad thing.

This whole thread is about not judging people. You made the comment that you don’t judge these people because they are “ignorant to the facts” that you know. Was that not condensating to DA?

So, I guess if we want to be offended…I could be offended as well for you calling me ignorant?

True?

I think it is important to remember what this OP is ask about. This gal found porn mags at the house she was sitting, and had a Mormon moment of righteous judgement flood over her…and she felt bad about it.

I think she is right…it’s none of her business, and we need to stop using our warped mormon morality to demonize our neighbors who dont share our boxed values.

That is why I said this latest post is dangerous. I stand by it. It’s just my opinion.

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[Anonymous]

If I have misunderstood you Ruth, please clarify your position on porn and alcohol.

The floor is yours. I’ll read, much and respond little.

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[Anonymous]

That is a whole lot clearer, cwald – and it is something that can be discussed. Frankly, I wouldn’t have gotten that concern from the first comment, so thanks for the clarification.

Ruthie can answer for herself, but, again, she didn’t say alcohol consumption in moderation is a bad or evil thing. She said there are issues with alcohol consumption other than just alcoholism. I would specify date rape of those who drink too much on that occasion, car accidents due to alcohol impaired driving, release of anger in inappropriate ways, unfiltered comments when drinking, and many more things that are “issues with alcohol consumption other than alcoholism”.

Now, having said that, this post isn’t about that – it’s about judging people for what we perceive to be sins that we don’t commit. I really like Pres. Uchtdorf’s standard:

Quote:

“Don’t judge me for sinning differently than you do.”

I believe that is the heart of the issue – accepting that we ALL sin and, thus, must stop judging others just because they sin differently than we do.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

This whole thread is about not judging people. You made the comment that you don’t judge these people because they are “ignorant to the facts” that you know. Was that not condensating to DA?

So, I guess if we want to be offended…I could be offended as well for you calling me ignorant?

True?

I don’t have a pony in this race but I hope that I can speak to how I took Ruthie’s words.

Ruthiechan wrote:

But I find that it very much helps me to see people who view commercialized porn as people acting in ignorance, they don’t know better, they don’t get it, and it’s hard to get people to know better. Just having the knowledge doesn’t automatically make people “get it” and change their behavior. This helps me not judge so harshly and maintain ties and I’d rather not break.

I see this as another way of saying what Hawkgrrrl has frequently said:

Quote:

I’ve said many times that the person with the most awareness in a situation bears the most responsibility.

I do not think anyone would disagree that the exploitation of other people (particularly those that are unable or extremely limited in their ability to choose another path) is wrong. Exploiting children would be easy to agree on. After that it gets murkier as to what exactly constitutes exploitation and how responsible the person being exploited is for their situation. (for example – would it be exploitation if a university sold merchandise featuring a star player without compensation?)

I don’t think that we need to agree on every nuance. I see Ruthie as saying that if you are convicted in your heart that a certain action is wrong (cheifly because it contributes to the exploitation of others) you need not assume that everyone must follow your personal standard and conviction – others may act with less awareness than you can now do because they have not experienced a similar conviction of heart.

[Anonymous]

Ray, Roy….okay.

You know I’m going to speak up when Mormons are discussing, and alcohol is compared and/or inserted into the same sentence as sex/pornography. EVERY TIME.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

Ray, Roy….okay.

You know I’m going to speak up when Mormons are discussing, and alcohol is compared and/or inserted into the same sentence as sex/pornography. EVERY TIME.

Fair enough, I agree that the alcohol reference was a bit of a tangent that muddied rather than clarified what I believe was the intent of the post. I hope that we can return to the topic and keep WoW discussions for other threads.

[Anonymous]

For my part, I don’t delineate ‘sin’ as something I care about on a societal scale. It’s a little too narrow. When talking about other people, I prefer to think in terms of behavior and not ascribe Heavenly or Hellish context to it. If an individual defines ‘sin’ for themselves, in their own actions, that’s fine, but it is unnecessary, uncompromising, and unhelpful to define ‘sin’ in others. But now, if you are talking behavior… there are lots of actions that constitute perfectly fine behavior unless taken to an extreme.

If I go to a football game and people are there screaming in excitement, that is expected and accepted behavior, but if they start screaming obscenities and threats at fans of the other team, that might get them a black eye, kicked out, or both.

There is nothing inherently wrong with a fight between spouses… unless it goes “too far.”

Drinking is just a normal activity, and the majority of people I know who drink are first-rate people, but there are reasonable social expectations that the drinker should adhere to or they might wind up in the back seat of a black & white. (This reference to drinking is not only in a separate sentence, but even in it’s own paragraph ; – )

There is nothing wrong with sex-for-fun, unless only one party consents, or one of the parties is cheating on their spouse.

Porn has its own extremes. IMO, I don’t see anything wrong with a couple using it for mutual arousal. But there have to be some limits. You can’t expose it to others (the way the OP described). You can’t view porn where the subjects are children. I don’t know if it is legal or not, but simulated rape by actors for the purpose of arousal I would consider very wrong. I would argue that the use of porn by one spouse, hiding it from the other, would be unfair to the other spouse, and would result in trust issues.

So, I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t view anything as all-or-nothing anymore. There are degrees.

[Anonymous]

I probably overreacted to Ruth’s post. I apologize.

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