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Ruthiechan wrote:
…that 99% of men view porn and 1% are lying line doesn’t fly with me because I feel that the choice to view it matters very much…I agree that the porn industry victimizes women who are already easily victimized because of the rape culture in which we live. This makes it even more distasteful to me…That’s why
when I know that a friend looks at porn I see them as being ignorant on this subject because if they really got it, if they really understood it, they wouldn’t be consuming commercialized porn.Amateur porn is different, there are people who do such things totally consensually, though there’s still no guarantee that there’s no coercion involved…There are many issues with porn and even if you take away the evils of the porn industry, the parts about victimizing women (and men), there are STILL issues with it… Devil’s Advocate, you’re blaming the victims for being victimized. That’s what’s wrong with your idea there. Thus you are judging them wrongfully. Not cool,and kinda ironic since part of the OP was about judging others. I never said that I blame any truly unfortunate and helpless victims for anything, in fact I specifically said that if there is any illegal coercion happening that law enforcement should do everything they can to stop it so in that case I definitely blame any real criminals most of all. However, if porn producers aren’t breaking any laws and it isn’t very difficult for them to find women that are willing to do this for whatever reason then why would they stop? That’s just not very likely to happen anytime soon so that’s why I think any women that really can’t stand the idea of this have a much better chance of avoiding it on their own than any realistic chance that porn producers will want to stop making it or that very many men will suddenly be convinced that porn is so wrong that they actually stop viewing it permanently enough to make a real difference. What more people need to realize and understand is that they have little or no control over the decisions others make and worrying so much about what everyone else believes or does mostly affects them more than it will ever change anything that much from what we are already used to seeing happen over and over again.
Ray, that’s exactly what I meant about alcohol. Roy, that’s also what I meant when referring to people not knowing any better. Additionally, I used the alcohol reference as a possible way to help the OP not judge so harshly. No comparisons are perfect, however. Alas.
Devil’s Advocate, How do you know who is truly coerced? No one should have to sell their body like that to feed their family. Anyone who takes advantage of that is exploiting the person under duress and any “consent” under duress is no consent at all. There’s also psychological issues to consider as well as rape culture which tells porn stars who say, “every time someone watches that they’re watching me being raped” that they are lying. More often than not porn industry is exploitive. But as Ray said, that is beside the point of this post.
Cwald, I don’t know why you brought up DA, all I did was call him out on his victim blaming. I never called anyone participating in this thread anything. I’m sorry you were offended over the ignorant comment, but we’re all ignorant about something. No one has a complete knowledge set.
Furthermore the OP explained her problem with porn. It has to do with the exploitation of women. I have the same issue. Is this not a good enough non-religious reason to take issue with the porn industry? Since when is being against the exploitation of people a warped Mormon view? About porn between consenting adults, sure whatever, do what you want, except choose non-exploitive porn. The person in that photograph and in that film should fully consent without any sort of coercion to being photographed or filmed. Otherwise you (general you here not you specifically) are contributing, albeit indirectly, to that person’s rape and exploitation. I did talk about non-exploitive porn in my first post you know. Another non-exploitive porn I just thought of is hentai, Japanese animated porn.
So yes, I do feel that you did overreact, quite badly. It seems that you were so busy taking snippets of what I said personally that you missed the entire context of what I was saying. I hope you read the tempered tone with which I am trying to convey in this post. No animosity or mockery or anything like it is intended. Also, I know you’re not actually apologizing to me specifically, that you’re apologizing to Ray the Mod, but it is appreciated anyway.
Ruth….Okay. No. I was not apologizing to Ray. I rarely apologize to Ray, or any moderator.
I was apologizing to you. Specifically. Mostly because you are new here, I don’t know you, and I want to give you a fair shake, and I hope you will feel welcome and brave enough to voice your opinion in the future.
Ps…I will take “snippets” again at anyone who uses the words “alcohol” and “porn/sex” in the same sentence or paragraph…everytime.
Peace.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Ruthiechan wrote:…Devil’s Advocate, How do you know who is truly coerced? No one should have to sell their body like thatto feed their family. Anyone who takes advantage of that is exploiting the person under duress and any “consent” under duress is no consent at all. There’s also psychological issues to consider…More often than not porn industry is exploitive…Cwald,… I’m sorry you were offended over the ignorant comment, but we’re all ignorant about something. No one has a complete knowledge set…Furthermore the OP explained her problem with porn. It has to do with the exploitation of women. I have the same issue. Is this not a good enough non-religious reason to take issue with the porn industry? I don’t claim to know who is being coerced or not but there’s a difference between maybe having their boyfriend pressure them into this or doing it to fund a drug habit and having someone actually hold a gun to their heads. If any of them really feel that strongly about it then maybe they should come forward to the police, 48 hours, etc. with their story. Either way I see this as being mostly their problem to deal with and it’s not really my concern unless it starts happening on a large scale close to home.
Also, I’m not going to just assume that most of them feel like victims and if not then they should especially when some of them have already made far more money doing this than they probably would any other way. Why should we jump straight to conspiracy theories and worst-case scenarios when there are more likely explanations for why many of them would do what they do? Going back to the original topic, it seems like judgmental self-righteous indignation is all about assuming that others should be like us and see things the same way we do but the reality is that maybe some people have perfectly understandable reasons to view things differently than us and there’s also a good chance they will never change their minds about it no matter how much people try to ramp up the rhetoric against what still makes sense to them.
Let’s not turn this into just another post to argue about porn. That wasn’t the central theme of the post. How people view porn absolutely plays a role in judging people who view porn, so the general discussion is fine – but let’s be careful to stay focused on judging as the central theme of this thread. I kinda feel like DA and Ruthie are talking past one another. Ruthie seems to be saying that she objects to some porn on the grounds that it tends to exploit the performers and that some of the performers may be coerced or performing under duress. She also seems to feel that the consumer bares some responsibility for paying into and supporting the system. She is not militant about this and allows each individual to determine for themselves how to act responsibly. (If you buy tennis shoes produced in a sweatshop under horrid conditions, are you at all responsible for those conditions? Does the consumer ever have a duty to seek to improve the situation of these workers?)
DA seems to be saying that not all of the performers are coerced. He also seems to be saying that boycotting porn (either individually or as a group) will not likely make much of a difference because there will always be a sufficient base to support the industry. (In the tennis shoe analogy, consumers might convince the company to improve working conditions. Applying this to porn is difficult because such conditions will most likely always exist)
It’s as if to say on one hand, “Why feel bad about something that I cannot change?” and on the other hand “How can I not feel bad about being a party to human suffering (as I personally define it)?”
Both of these perspectives have validity and I can understand how an individual might honestly get to each one. Unfortunately both are also opposite approaches. I’m not sure there is a happy medium in this case and the best course of action might be to agree to disagree. I’m just one person, but I hope we can give this discussion a rest and move on. Thanks
I really think the answer is quite simple. “stop it.” “Don’t judge me because I sin differently than you.” I think mormons have this bundle of morals and values they have developed over time from their unique culture, (i.e. why alcohol was mentioned in this thread dealing with porn) and it becomes very dangerous when they start applying that towards their neighbors and non member friends.
Just because we teach something is a sin in the LDS church, does not make it so, or make it “evil.”
Is pornography a sin? Is pornography evil? It is in the mormon world obviously. But, in my world, sin is doing something that harms others. Does pornography in and of itself harm other people? I don’t know. I’m guessing most of the damage is done by our own making, specifically from religious teachings.
I have no doubt there is an element of sexual abuse and crime in the porn industry…but you’ll find that in EVERY industry. You’ll find sexual abuse and crime in preschools and churches…but that doesn’t mean they are sinful and evil necessarily, and should be deemed a cultural nuisance, and we should look down on those who participate.
I stand by my earlier comment. This person does it in the privacy of his own home. Both the wife and the husband know about it obviously. It’s no one else business. Leave it alone and don’t judge. IMO
I don’t believe I introduced alcohol to the thread because it is comparable or an equal of some kind to porn. I was actually using it to make the point:
Quote:“Don’t judge me for sinning differently than you do.”
And the exercise of seeing how alcohol doesn’t bring the same emotions or temptation for judging as porn does to the author of the OP is the exercise that should be discussed, not porn, or alcohol, or ranking sins or evils one against another.
“I have an opinion on the morality of porn”
and
“I feel bad for judging my friends who are using porn”
…are two different things.
I am not sure that the church teaches that we should
neverjudge, in fact I think we are supposed to use our agency to judge right from wrong. I think we are taught this is gaining experience and wisdom in this life, so judging things is part of our growth. We even have church positions to specifically be a “Judge in Israel”, which is not an unrighteous thing. It is HOW we judge within our realm of stewardships that determines growth or not. Because some things others do really do make us feel uncomfortable. And as a father, I want to protect my family and unfortunately cannot blindly trust everyone else in society. How then, do we judge in righteousness, and avoid the things the Savior taught?
Quote:With what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother: Let me pull the mote out of thine eye—and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother’s eye
(3 Nephi 14:2-5).
That lesson from the scriptures doesn’t say “NEVER JUDGE”. Just to be aware that the standard you use on others will be what the Lord uses for you.
Another beautiful quote from Pres Uchdorf is:
Quote:Perhaps we should be looking less with our eyes and more with our hearts. I love the quote: “One sees clearly only with the heart. Anything essential is invisible to the eyes.”
Oct 2012 GC
Finding the magazines in the neighbor’s house…how does it look if we look with our hearts at that situation? Does our heart tell us they are evil perverts? Does our heart tell us there is danger and we must confront them or avoid them? What does our heart tell us about the individuals and the kind of people they are in totality, understanding no one is perfect? What things are motes and what things are beams? Can we even see clearly enough to know that before we react to the neighbor?Quote:I think mormons have this bundle of morals and values they have developed over time from their unique culture, (i.e. why alcohol was mentioned in this thread dealing with porn) and it becomes very dangerous when they start applying that towards their neighbors and non member friends.
I think this is an important point (and it’s true not just about Mormons, but pretty much everyone) – that just because something might be against my conscience doesn’t mean that it must be against someone else’s conscience. As I said in a previous comment, I have NO problem with two consenting adults using some kind of porn to enhance their sexual relationship – even though I understand that it can become a slippery slope for some people, and even as I do object to some kinds of porn existing and being used by anyone.
Bottom line: I can’t judge someone not knowing their complete situation, and I can’t hold others to my own personal standards. I have to allow all (wo)men everywhere the same privilege, let them (act) how, when or (in what manner) they may – understanding that illegal activities are a separate issue.
Thus, my advice about trying to get over judging people is simply to look at how others judge me – and put myself in the shoes of the people I tend to judge – and ask myself how I would want them to view and treat me if they knew about things I do which they wouldn’t do – etc. I try to apply the Golden Rule and do to others as I would want them to do to me, especially when it comes to things I do in the privacy of my own home with my consenting wife.
Hi there. I’d like to chime in here with limited time so i hope this comes out right. First of all, i think it is fantastic that you want to work on not judging others, a great goal for everybody. I found this quote interesting… Quote:I just honestly can’t look at this dad the same way again and almost am to the point that I just consider him a creep. Maybe a random place to ask for support but obviously I contribute this to my Mormon upbringing. I just keep telling myself inside that my husband had a problem with this before I met him and still has struggles but I consider him a good person….
So you say your husband has looked at porn in the past and still has struggles yet you worry you may consider this friend a creep because of the out in the open magazines. I think this illustrates something about the LDS culture, that we tend to keep quiet about our moral weaknesses and find that the acceptable way. Nonmembers from my experience don’t, at least when porn is the subject. I think trying to internalize this difference may be helpful.
I do agree with most everything that has been said in this thread. I think it’s good to avoid judging people, particularly when “sin” is used as the measuring stick, because what is “sin” to one person is not “sin” to another. But I do want to offer this, simply to keep the pendulum from swinging too far… On judging and judgment: Let’s say my kid wants to go to a sleepover at a friends house and I know the dad has a hunting rifle that he keeps locked up in a gun safe… Do I think it’s OK for my kid to go over there? Yeah, probably. Now let’s say I know the guy keeps a semi-auto handgun in a quick-access safe on his night stand… hmmm… I’d have to know him a little better. Now let’s say that I know that he keeps his loaded handgun in a drawer in his nightstand not in a safe. Man… only if I really know the guy well, and had assurances that the kids would never have access to it, and would be supervised at all times, but it would be a very hard-sell. Now what if I know the guy kept his loaded handgun on the kitchen counter. Absolutely no… not under any circumstances.
Is the guy within his rights to have his gun readily accessible? Maybe, I suppose it depends on the state. Does it affect how I interact with him? No question. Is it fair? I don’t care.
My point is that our interactions with people are based on our world-view. Many of the people here would not allow their child even in the first scenario above, and I have no problem with that. I’m not going to tell that person they need to get over it and stop judging other people. We each have our perspectives of what is important and what is not. I think it’s good to try to understand that porn is not all evil. But if you are a woman and your husband looks at porn all the time and you are uncomfortable with it, you are certainly within your rights to tell him to knock it off or the only naked woman he’ll ever see again is in a magazine. If the OP is uncomfortable around this person because of something she saw in his house, I think it would be great to make an attempt to see things in a new light, but if you can’t get past it, don’t worry about it and move on. You are entitled to your own feelings on the subject. I can completely understand why a woman (not all women, but some women) would think of porn as disgusting and not want to associate with people who openly and regularly seek it out for sexual gratification. There, I said it. It’s OK to judge on some subjects, depending on your perspective.
In the case of the OP, I believe you’d be within your righteous judgment, not to let your kids play over there unsupervised knowing that the guy has loaded porn sitting on his nightstand and not kept under lock and key. A lot of guys in my generation were first exposed to porn because one of their friend’s parents had it and didn’t keep it locked away.
What I do think is MOST important is that we treat others with fairness and decency even if they do things that we don’t do (or don’t do things that we do). But treating with kindness and fairness is not the same as being best buds.
Going back to the OP, we could separate the whole “porn is bad because it exploits women” argument if we changed one part of it. What if the OP had found in the stack of books on the night stand explicit photos of the homeowners. It would be safe to assume there was no exploitation going on. So now how does one judge or not judge the homeowners? Quote:In the case of the OP, I believe you’d be within your righteous judgment, not to let your kids play over there unsupervised knowing that the guy has loaded porn sitting on his nightstand and not kept under lock and key. A lot of guys in my generation were first exposed to porn because one of their friend’s parents had it and didn’t keep it locked away.
Absolutely agree with this. However she didn’t mention kids in her post. She mentioned she is trying not to judge this couple. If kids are involved in the friendship that is totally understandable that she may have concerns and proceed to act on them.
On Own Now wrote:I do agree with most everything that has been said in this thread. I think it’s good to avoid judging people, particularly when “sin” is used as the measuring stick, because what is “sin” to one person is not “sin” to another. But I do want to offer this, simply to keep the pendulum from swinging too far…
On judging and judgment: Let’s say my kid wants to go to a sleepover at a friends house and I know the dad has a hunting rifle that he keeps locked up in a gun safe… Do I think it’s OK for my kid to go over there? Yeah, probably. Now let’s say I know the guy keeps a semi-auto handgun in a quick-access safe on his night stand… hmmm… I’d have to know him a little better. Now let’s say that I know that he keeps his loaded handgun in a drawer in his nightstand not in a safe. Man… only if I really know the guy well, and had assurances that the kids would never have access to it, and would be supervised at all times, but it would be a very hard-sell. Now what if I know the guy kept his loaded handgun on the kitchen counter. Absolutely no… not under any circumstances.
Is the guy within his rights to have his gun readily accessible? Maybe, I suppose it depends on the state. Does it affect how I interact with him? No question. Is it fair? I don’t care.
My point is that our interactions with people are based on our world-view. Many of the people here would not allow their child even in the first scenario above, and I have no problem with that. I’m not going to tell that person they need to get over it and stop judging other people. We each have our perspectives of what is important and what is not. I think it’s good to try to understand that porn is not all evil. But if you are a woman and your husband looks at porn all the time and you are uncomfortable with it, you are certainly within your rights to tell him to knock it off or the only naked woman he’ll ever see again is in a magazine. If the OP is uncomfortable around this person because of something she saw in his house, I think it would be great to make an attempt to see things in a new light, but if you can’t get past it, don’t worry about it and move on. You are entitled to your own feelings on the subject. I can completely understand why a woman (not all women, but some women) would think of porn as disgusting and not want to associate with people who openly and regularly seek it out for sexual gratification. There, I said it. It’s OK to judge on some subjects, depending on your perspective.
In the case of the OP, I believe you’d be within your righteous judgment, not to let your kids play over there unsupervised knowing that the guy has loaded porn sitting on his nightstand and not kept under lock and key. A lot of guys in my generation were first exposed to porn because one of their friend’s parents had it and didn’t keep it locked away.
What I do think is MOST important is that we treat others with fairness and decency even if they do things that we don’t do (or don’t do things that we do). But treating with kindness and fairness is not the same as being best buds.
Thanks, On Own Now. This strikes me as very sensible.
Sheldon wrote:Going back to the OP, we could separate the whole “porn is bad because it exploits women” argument if we changed one part of it. What if the OP had found in the stack of books on the night stand explicit photos of the homeowners. It would be safe to assume there was no exploitation going on. So now how does one judge or not judge the homeowners?
“I just honestly can’t look at this [homeowner couple] the same way again” Finding explicit photos of them would forever change my perception of them as non-kinky individuals. ::bazinga::
Goldilocks wrote:I think this illustrates something about the LDS culture, that we tend to keep quiet about our moral weaknesses and find that the acceptable way.
I agree 100% – Part of how we deal with our weaknesses is to hide them.
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