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There needs to be an acronym for the “typical” mormon introduction: 5th/6th generation, returned missionary, byu grad, temple marriage, elders quorum teacher. I followed John D to this forum though I never posted anywhere before. For a couple years, I’d been finding a “middle” way and, thankfully, my wife is 100% supportive. I’ve always had issues with the church’s stance on homosexuality and, with a sibling, had decided that my reason for staying in the church (amongst others) was to affect change in this area. Upon hearing of the church’s direct involvement in Prop 102 in Arizona (same as Prop 8 in CA), I felt morally obligated to resign from the church. It’s been difficult for me to let the church go.
I continue to attend with my wife and two boys, try to go to the EQ moves, give money to the Scouts, etc. but I can’t shake the desire to “change” the church’s position. I know that this is emotionally unhealthy but staying close to an organization that excludes, drives my activist side. I see in John Dehlin and the posters on this forum a nascent core for moving this transformation. I’m not recruiting, just hoping to find a place where dialogue can develop and thoughts can be promoted.
I’m not sure if I qualify to post on this forum since I am no longer a member of the church, but I do consider myself a continuing part of the community. I have been reading alot of the posts and this issue doesn’t seem to come up much, possibly due to the fact that it was created after the November firestorm over Prop 8.
Lastly, if anyone else felt the moral tinge over the church’s involvement in Prop 8, how did you deal with this?
Welcome welcome. Feel free to post, I certainly welcome your ideas. Your story sounds very very familiar (did I mention very). The biggest difference is that I didn’t take the resignation step you did. I was always a typical orthodox Mormon but had underground heterodox ideas that I just ignored. I live in Livermore, CA and was a part of the whole Prop 8 thing. In fact, it was prop 8 and the pressure placed on us here that was the catalyst for me to finally address the heterodox ideas, feelings, and opinions I had always had but ignored. I could write pages and pages about prop 8 (I did
tonsof research on the subject). I would welcome a thread on it. Also, if you’re interested in a more detailed discussion I would be happy to take the discussion offline. Send me a PM if you’re interested. As for how I dealt with Prop 8 and the church, I am still dealing with it. My honest opinion is that I think the church will rue the day it decided to embark on this crusade. I don’t agree with their involvement (I consider it a political issue, not a moral one), and I think from the leadership standpoint it is sad they use their unwarranted near infallibility in the eyes of their people to advance their cause (while I recognize it is within their legal right). From a member’s standpoint I think it is sad that so many place their full trust in the leaders of the church, so much so that they ignore their own conscience sometimes (I did).
I am ashamed to say that I voted “yes” on prop 8. At the time, while I didn’t agree with it, I still had (blind?) faith, confidence, and trust in the leaders such that I thought it was more important to be obedient than to do what I thought was right. For me, I have regretted this many times, and honestly have wished I could apologize publicly for not following my conscience.
I voted “no” on 102, although my DH voted “yes,” and I don’t think less of him for his opinions. We are both pro-gay rights (anti discrimination), but Prop 102 was specifically changing the law to restrict the definition of marriage constitutionally. To me, that felt unnecessary since AZ doesn’t allow gay marriage, and I disliked the fearmongering arguments the Prop 102 proponents put forward. I am ambivalent about SSM, truly, but I am very strongly pro-gay rights / anti-discrimination. Most of my gay friends (at least the non-LDS ones) are not that interested in SSM so long as their rights are not infringed, although many are in long-term relationships. Most of my gay friends are not that religious, which may be why. Personally, I don’t like legislating morality either (I’m not sure SSM is doing that, though). I would prefer to reduce the amount of government we have. I would rather ensure that marriage is not given preferential treatment by the law than providing that preferential treatment to all. But of course, that’s not what the legislative choices have offered thus far.
Hi and welcome! I live in Colorado, but still had to hear about how horrible “the church” was being treated. Actually, one of the church building out here had an incident at it related to Prop 8 fallout. So, I guess we aren’t as far removed as I would have thought.
Anyway, I have been known to get up and walk out of class when the issue was being talked about. It was always in relation to how “they” were attacking the family and all the horrible things “they” did to the temple and church. It was very hard to listen to. I still have to hear negative things about homosexuals from time to time and it makes me uncomfortable.
I think it is no different than when the church (as a whole) was incredibly racist and many tried to keep the civil rights act from passing. IRS makes threats and suddenly blacks can hold the priesthood (okay, there was more to it than that).
I would not be the least bit surprised if one day the same thing happened in regards to SSM. I wonder how that would make people feel about the things they have said and judgments they have made.
Last, but not least, I think that the church had to create an enemy. We had become a lot more mainstream and well liked in the world. I think there is a perception that the church is true BECAUSE we “are persecuted.” So, we will always have to create it.
Having said all that, I really can’t claim it has had anything to do with my journey.
Oh, and I admire your courage for going to church even though you have resigned! Do you find it difficult or awkward?
Okay, since this is somewhat turning into a discussion about SSM, let me post an opinion on that too. I am not for or against SSM. I am against gov’t regulating personal affairs. In my opinion the vote should have been as follows: Should we allow same sex marriage?
a. No
b. Yes
c. The gov’t should get out of the business of regulating personal affairs. Civil marriage will be abolished, civil contracts (available to all) will be instituted, and we’ll leave marriage where it rightfully belongs – in the social contract sphere where religions, cults, and other groups can argue over its importance.
just me wrote:Last, but not least, I think that the church had to create an enemy. We had become a lot more mainstream and well liked in the world. I think there is a perception that the church is true BECAUSE we “are persecuted.” So, we will always have to create it.
This is a good point. We do tend to do this. In fact, my mother-in-law (she is one of the few who knows about my journey) has sent me several articles talking about Satan, deception, war against evil, etc. From one of them we read:
Quote:I think we will witness increasing evidence of Satan’s power as the kingdom of God grows stronger. I believe Satan’s ever-expanding effort are some proof of the truthfulness of this work. – James E. Faust “First Presidency Message: The Forces That Will Save Us” January Ensign 2007
swimordie wrote:Upon hearing of the church’s direct involvement in Prop 102 in Arizona (same as Prop 8 in CA), I felt morally obligated to resign from the church.
It’s been difficult for me to let the church go.
First and foremost, welcome welcome. I love this site and like the divirsity of opinions and healthy environment to discuss things. I’ve been a TBM my whole life, and still believe the church is “true” – just now defining more clearly what true means to me and learning of things in church history to decide what is important to church today and me today, and what doesn’t.
I will start by showing you the ignorance of Heber13…I know what Prop 8 is, I know the church organized an effort to go against it, I know Tom Hanks said unkind things about the church…
But I don’t really know or appreciate the depth of the situation (probably because I’m removed geographically).
With no inclings of disrespect, I’m interested in what the church did that made you feel obliged to resign? I have wondered the same of jmb275 from things I’ve picked up in his Intro and posts (tho I don’t think jmb275 resigned, just deconstructed his beliefs and this issue was the catalyst).
I’d like to get a better feel for what the church did/is doing wrong?
My view (again, my ignorance to the issue is evident), is that if the church teaches gay marriage is not approved by God, it should then be up to me to choose how to vote. As a poor example, but one I’ll use since it came to me off the top of my head, Pres Hinckley and Pres Faust went to Univ. of Utah and not BYU…that doesn’t mean I think they’re wrong or the church has apostacized. I like BYU and I don’t care for Univ of Utah…that’s my opinion but it won’t keep me from going to church.
I bet there were a bunch of boneheaded mormons that started yelling things about vote Yes on Prop 8 or you’re going to hell, but I give no consideration for close minded people like that.
Can you enlighten me on what the church did that was so wrong? I look forward to hearing your posts. jmb275, feel free to jump in as well. Ray, should this be moved to another thread? Thanks!!
Given the title and focus of the post, I am fine with leaving it here – although it really shouldn’t be in the “introduction” category, since it will be harder for future readers and lurkers to find. So, I will post a generic “Prop 8 / SSM” thread in the “General Discussion” category as soon as I finish this comment. Let’s move that discussion there.This is what I wrote in the new thread on SSM/Prop 8: I’m so proud of myself for getting an intro thread moved.
In response to Heber13 and the question of why I felt morally obligated to resign:
Two reasons– first, as an imperfect devoted follower of Christ’s teachings, I feel that He would never disqualify a person the opportunity for the fulness of the gospel (especially eternal companionship). I know He loves every person unconditionally and I believe that He allows us to become who we are and, in that sense, He “created” us. A fellow human who is naturally attracted to the same sex is the creation of a loving Heavenly Father. He accepts them as He created them and expects them to find love, happiness, service in the “state” that they are in. NOT to try to “fix” the “condition”, or “overcome” the “struggle”. Those are, frankly, bigoted ideas. A bigot is a person who feels justified in deeming that another human being is somehow “broken” or “incomplete” or “not quite human” or “unnatural”. Nazi’s killed the disabled as well as Jews, homosexuals, gypsys, etc.
The church’s official position on homosexuality (which they have posted on lds.org) is essentially that homosexuality is some sort of “disability”, akin to being blind; that it is a struggle to overcome just like someone with say cystic fibrosis, and that many people with SSA can lead meaningful lives in the church by staying celibate for life or discovering a way to still get married, have kids, and lead a “normal” life.
God created the condition of homosexuality in the same way that he created heterosexuality. Just as he created the races, the languages, genders, etc. In my heart, I believe that the church left Christ on this topic and I chose, for myself, to follow the Christ that I’ve always tried to follow. In fact, I tell people that when they ask: I feel that the church left me, not that I left the church. (I am fully aware of the egotistic nature of that comment)
Second, as I’ve noticed by reading many of the posts on this forum, alot of you are politically libertarian even if you don’t admit it. I am too and feel strongly that the more that religion inserts itself into the civic discourse the greater the danger for the loss of religious liberty in the long run. The church is opening itself up to government oversight, regulation, etc. and potentially the loss of tax-exempt status by its political posture. The church could never have been founded, the gospel restored without the religious liberty protection of the constitution (in spite of the trampling of the right by some citizens of missouri, illinois, etc.) Which, to bring it full circle, is why the church’s current “doctrinal” stance and political position on this issue is so ironic.
IMHO, needless to say.
Quote:just me
Oh, and I admire your courage for going to church even though you have resigned! Do you find it difficult or awkward?
Actually, everything’s been fine. I often get the sense that people respect the gravity of my decision and I haven’t felt any negative ‘vibes’. Interestingly, I’ve been married for 13 years and can count on one hand the number of times we’ve been home taught but since I resigned, we’ve had HT’s every month!
Also, being in Arizona, I’m sure alot of members were conflicted about Prop 102 so it would be dangerous for anyone to speak up pro or con. Or, most agree with me and don’t know what they can do about it. “So let it be written, so let it be done.” Anyone else notice that disagreeing with the brethren never happens? (at least where I’ve been to church)
I do it frequently when talking about a single leader’s words – generally with something like, “Yeah, so and so said that, but the united brethren have never published anything about it, and I think sometimes . . .” I say it quietly and contemplatively – and I’m almost never challenged on it, since I don’t talk in a challenging way. People sometimes disagree (and say so), but it’s almost always in the same respectful tone. Of course, I live in an incredibly wonderful, caring ward, so that helps.
swimordie wrote:Anyone else notice that disagreeing with the brethren never happens? (at least where I’ve been to church)
Yep, I’ve noticed. Not here though. And not me (at least now). But I have also made my position known to my bishop and have never been asked to speak in my ward. I think the Bishop is afraid of what I might say. However, I would welcome the opportunity. I would politely and respectfully disagree.Wow, great thread. First of all, welcome swimordie, this is definitely the right forum for you. I am with you 100% on the issue of SSM… currently one of my biggest issues with the church. Also, I too want to commend you for continuing to attend church despite your resignation. I am hoping to remain committed to attend on Sundays with my TBM husband and children even if I get to the point where I need to pull back from my activity in the church. Family unity and respect is so important. My DH has been unbelievably supportive, especially these last few weeks, so I have a desire to appease him by making an effort where the church is concerned.
Welcome!
Hi Swimordie. Welcome to the forums. You don’t have to be a member on paper to participate here. The main point is to find productive ways to be engaged in the LDS community, and to even find ways of using the framework of Mormonism in our spiritual lives after going through a disillusionment. You sound like you fit into those categories to some degree or another, and you are still involved in the LDS community even if you formally resigned.
Again, welcome. I’d love to hear more.
Thank you everyone for the welcome messages. In the short time I’ve been stalking this forum, it really does feel like the “home” I’d like to participate in. I hope I can be an addition to the respectful journey we are all on. As a TBM with two gay brothers (one deceased) and a gay son, I resented the church’s involvement in prop 8. For twelve weeks, I picked up the ward program for Sacrament to be greeted by a prop 8 flyer falling into my lap. I told my friend who was putting them in the programs after the first week, that I would be taking an 11 week vacation from church. He actually got tears in his eyes. He begged me to simply tear up the flyers and leave them in the foyer. Of course, note that he didn’t simply put the flyers in a on the foyer table for those who might want them. I walked out of Sacrament four times over those three months. I couldn’t bear testimonies about prop 8 that didn’t mention Jesus Christ. I couldn’t stand members of the stake presidency with their ‘obedience is the first law of Heaven’ talks. I turned completely away from Priesthood Meeting, so I didn’t have to hear where to picket and when to pass out flyers door to door. I have never gone back to PM. I eventually was quietly approached by other ward members who agreed with me, but afraid to let leadership know. We built a support system outside the ward meetings. I picketed against prop 8 on the main corner of town, while one of my 15 grandchildren picketed with the ward on the other corner. You seen, I’ve given the church half a century of service. Four of my five children are TBMs (the other son is gay, remember) I’ve brought a large posterity of offspring to the LDS church. I feel used. I feel I have brought my loved ones up in a racest, narrow-minded, conditional church. What will I say to my non-members parents when I see them in Heaven? They were simple followers of Christ. They loved everyone and embraced the diversity of the human family. We LDS are so blind.
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